downsides and questions about the 123 distibutor

[vairter]

OK, I know many will roll their eyes and wonder if this is yet another thread about this distibutor.  

 

But I'm at the cusp of having to decide if it's worth spending $500+ on this, so I get to put my focus on this question.

 

Let me look at it from the perspective of what the potential downsides are to this unit (my wife says I always like to take a negative outlook...):

 

(1) the installation and documentation information from the vendor is sub-par: not a deal-killer since there are lots of accounts online about how to do it.

 

(2) the longevity of the distributor:  will the units last 50K+, 100K+, 150K+ miles?  The mechanical structure is simpler than a conventional distributor, but does the vendor really know how to make units that will last a long time?  Will the vendor be around in 10 years when the units start to fail either mechanically or electrically.  I haven't found much about this online...

 

(3) the ambiguity about how to handle vacuum advance: not a huge problem, but there is a lot of confusion online and it is still unclear to me if MAP sensing does as good a job as ported vacuum advance in a conventional mechanical distributor.

 

(4) the oil intrusion problem:  seems to afflict a non-trivial number of the units and the vendor doesn't seem to be willing to modify the design to fix this for all users.  Could be a big problem having to get the units rebuilt ever 15K miles.

 

(5) if it fails, it's a black box and can't be readily troubleshooted by a typical user.  You have to send it back to the vendor (if they still exist) or toss it and start over with a new solution.  

 

 

Anything I've missed?  Am I being too paranoid about this expensive solution?

 

Terry

 

 

 

 

 

 

[iinca]

1) You answered your own question. So much info your brain will hurt. Plus you can call them any time they are open and they will talk and talk and help. Emails are answered pretty quick too.

 

2) It's electronic. Should last 'till you die

 

3) READ MORE about vacuum 

 

4) I've only heard of one or two cases of oil seepage. There's over 5000 members here on the faq and good percentage have 123's...

and a few zillion' other 123 owners in different cars

 

5) If they still exist? No comment... except that they are a very successful company that will only get bigger as people discover how good their product is 

 

*500 bux is not bad in the big scheme. If you start messing around rebuilding stock units your gonna spend plenty of money too

 

** I run both vacuum and centrifugal on my tii and I'd never go back to

the old design...never. Feels like I've got another 20 hp.....hehe

Edited April 19, 2020 by iinca

[adawil2002]

123s are nice. My experience on my 1973 2002 Tii & 3.0 CSi are the same, unit gets oil intrusion in the cap at ~16K miles. People who drive their BMWs fewer miles per year, the oil intrusion may take years.

 

What people like about the 123 is it has the proper curve or is customizable. 

 

Having your original Bosch rebuild & recurved will last much longer for the money spent.

[vairter]

Regarding the longevity issue, yes, I know they're electronic, but there are still mechanical moving parts that must wear and eventually fail.  And if the electronics are really that good, then a mechanically worn shaft, bushing, washer, etc. will end up being the limiting factor.

 

It would be interesting to know how long people have run these in the field without failure.  I found one guy on Youtube who had run one 100,000 km, but it eventually did suffer an electronic failure.

[zinz]

I've been extolling the virtues of the 123 now for many years, but like anything made by man, it is not perfect.  I have well over 20,000 miles on a programmable (not a Bluetooth) model in my '71.  It has never faltered and might weep a small amount of oil within the housing; though it has never been a problem.  

 

I have helped install maybe a dozen for friends and only they can speak if they have experienced problems, but most everyone seems to be quite happy with them.

 

Now... the flip side.  I installed a Bluetooth unit in my 2000CS last Fall.  I ran it out to the O-Fest in South Carolina and all around, putting 4500 miles on it.  Recently, I had that car on the rack to address a few items after the restoration.  I pulled the distributor cap and there was a fair amount of oil within the housing...more than I was comfortable with.  I had the US 123 representative on the phone and he claims BMW is the only marque who seems to have this issue of oil getting into the housing (the M10 can produce a good deal of crankcase pressure, I think we call all admit that).  He offered to reseal my distributor for a fee, plus shipping. When I asked, he stated he would only put new 123 seals back in place.  I declined his offer... what's the point of putting the same seal back in when it is a known weak point.

 

Ray experienced the same issue and in disgust, he completely disassembled his 123 for a thorough autopsy. His thread is here:

 

Ray found several design flaws that, unfortunately, 123 will not address for the BMW market.  Most notably, the main shaft in a Bosch unit has several oiling grooves that help distribute lubrication to the dizzy...the 123 does not have those grooves.  Secondly, the shaft seals of the 123 are not up to the task at hand for some M10 engines.  As I say, my '71 doesn't seem to have any problem, but my '67 does.

 

123 will put their electronics into an original Bosch distributor for you... I think the cost is $650??? Yikes.

 

Your mileage will vary.. perhaps your engine will like the 123 and give many years of faithful service.  You can send your Bosch unit to be rebuilt for several hundred bucks...it is a wear-item and will need to be rebuilt again eventually.

 

Not sure if this muddies the waters even further for you, but I think there are more satisfied 123 users than dissatisfied users out there.  Perhaps we should have a poll to determine that?

 

Ed

 

 

[Conserv]

I know a guy who has one of those fancy 123Ignition’s, even had the electronics installed in a housing identical to his ‘02’s original distributor, just so Tom wouldn’t notice. And this guy — so I hear — is currently happy with the 123.

 

But he also had his car’s original distributor rebuilt by Advanced Distributors and keeps that precious baby by his bedside, just in case that 123 misses a beat, or even glances at him sideways.

 

This guy wears a belt and suspenders... ?

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Conserv

[tech71]

It's a little early but popcorn may be in order...

[jimk]

11 hours ago, vairter said:

(3) the ambiguity about how to handle vacuum advance: not a huge problem, but there is a lot of confusion online and it is still unclear to me if MAP sensing does as good a job as ported vacuum advance in a conventional mechanical distributor.

If 123 people would think in the same way EFI has been thinking for 35 years, to use absolute pressure instead of vacuum relative to atmospheric pressure, the setup is obvious.  No, a ported vacuum connection is old school on a 123. Absolute manifold pressure is the EFI method. At lower manifold pressure, more advance is tolerated, at higher pressure, less.  After all std atomosphere pressure is 14.7 psi absolute (or 101.xx kPa).

[TobyB]

Quote

2) It's electronic. Should last 'till you die

 

Oh, my.  Well, it might, but how long are you planning on living?

All electronic devices are designed to a lifespan- a point at which some

percentage of them will have failed.  Consumer is usually fairly short-

thousands of hours at 25c and 50% humidity-

while Military tends to be the longest. 

Circuit DESIGN factors into this a lot, too.

 

Heat's the big one, though.  The 2002 distributor runs cooler than water,

until you stop moving for a while.  Then it heats up to something close to what

the head casting is.

 

Vibration, too- BMW (who's been doing car electronics for a while, in quantity) has even

had problems with this.  The old guys at work said that solder's not meant to hold something

in place: you need a firm mechanical connection, THEN you solder it.

They had all been trained in electronics in the military, by the Navy and Air Force.

2 places where vibration, heat and corrosion tend to be common.

Modern electronics physically disassemble themselves as the solder fails.

Or as the pads pull off the epoxy.

Ray's distributor is not what any of the old guys would have called 'battleworthy'.

 

An M10 doesn't build any crankcase pressure, unless you plug the vent.  

 

I still use a mechanical distributor with a module in it.

I carry a spare module and a set of points, because as Steve says, 'belt and suspenders'

and neither of those little things takes up ANY space.

 

Now that we can go to crank- triggered ignition for racing, I'll eventually do that,

because if you're putting electronics in, may as well get them to 

be as accurate as you can.  

 

things I think I know,

t

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by TobyB

[tech71]

19 minutes ago, TobyB said:

 

 

They had all been trained in electronics in the military, by the Navy and Air Force.

 

Ray's distributor is not what any of the old guys would have called 'battleworthy'.

t

 

As a technical inspector Army aviation, I was required to take and pass a class exclusively on soldering and complete yearly refreshers as well.

who you callin old?

Edited April 19, 2020 by tech71

[jrhone]

I probably have at least 75k miles on the 123 units.  I had an early bluetooth prototype unit that had an electronic bug that was fixed before release.  It worked perfectly but once warm you couldn't change curves until the int cooled down.  They said it was a firmware issue, but I never sent it back.  Bought a production unit so I could support the company and probably have about 35k miles on that unit.  no issues with either unit.  

[Dudeland]

The alternatives to this dizzy is a crank trigger.  Crank trigger is more accurate, but involved and more expensive.  I have both (for now) I use the crank trigger with my efi then distribute the spark with the 123 set at 0 degrees. 

 

As I am about to Turbo, crank case pressure is something I am thinking about.  I wonder if people having problems with crank case pressure (especially those who have worn rings), are also those folks with oil intrusion. 

 

 

[TobyB]

7 hours ago, tech71 said:

As a technical inspector Army aviation, I was required to take and pass a class exclusively on soldering and complete yearly refreshers as well.

who you callin old?

In this case, Korean war....

 

t

we're talking vacuum tubes and lacing tape, here.

[TobyB]

 

5 hours ago, Dudeland said:

The alternatives to this dizzy is a crank trigger.  Crank trigger is more accurate, but involved and more expensive.  I have both (for now) I use the crank trigger with my efi then distribute the spark with the 123 set at 0 degrees. 

 

As I am about to Turbo, crank case pressure is something I am thinking about.  I wonder if people having problems with crank case pressure (especially those who have worn rings), are also those folks with oil intrusion. 

 

 

 

The older EDIS solution cost about half of the 123, and had a LOT fewer moving parts.  Microspark?  I forget.

 

There's no need to worry about crank case pressure- vent the valve cover to your air inlet 

(or atmosphere, if you wish)

and it won't build up.  At all.

 

t

 

['76mintgrün'02]

6 minutes ago, TobyB said:

we're talking vacuum tubes and lacing tape, here.

 

... now we're talking.