Legality / Risk Bumper Removal (Replacement)

[Seth Horwitz]

If one were to put a non-stock bumper (or remove it completely) on a model year that required 5mph bumpers, is there any liability to the owner? You’re unlikely to have issues, but can/will your insurance company tell you that they aren’t covering an incident (from a liability standpoint) if the bumper is no good? Are cars exempt after a certain number of years, even if they are North American cars? People clearly make the swap, but I’ve also seen plenty of other illegal things in wide use on our roads. (Mostly during the Fast & Furious Honda Civic Era, which is thankfully over.) Thanks for any info. 

     Seth

[Simeon]

This is interesting. The answer will be relate to two different but related areas.

 

The first is legality: is the modification legal in your state? In Australia, such a modification would be classed as a defective body structure until you could convince an independent engineer to sign it off. Given that you are removing a bumper and replacing it with... nothing it might be hard to convince anyone that it is acceptable in the Australian scenario.

 

In the land of the free, I guess in some states, it seems you can make any modifications you want to your car and if there is no requirement to have your car safety inspected then nobody will ever judge the quality or sense of that modification. This is OK until you get to the second area:

 

Having modified your car, even if entirely legal, surely you open your self up in a civil case following an accident?  If I ran into you and the accident was my fault, could I claim that your lack of bumper failed to mitigate my loss?  The costs and consequences of an accident are now much greater than they should be for an unmodified car. Should I be liable for all of those costs or just the costs associated with running into a bumpered car?

 

Certainly some mud in the water. 

 

What about a scenario where the accident is your fault? Wouldn’t this be even worse? Your modifications could easily make the risk (probability X consequence) of an accident worse (or certainly could look that way in court). 

 

 I am not a lawyer but I would imagine that there would be some precedent around this somewhere. Insurance companies in the UK want to know what your modifications are before they price your insurance risk and obviously in Australia you can’t insure a car with modifications outside of those that have either been approved by an engineer or minor ones allowed by the rules. 

 

Follow the money. The insurance companies know the answer. 

[Seth Horwitz]

We're of very similar thinking. The only thing that I think COULD override some of the question is the way the U.S. treats older cars. Not only is registration, inspection, and insurance normally reduced at a certain age, but we can bring in (to my understanding) fully non-compliant cars after 25 years. Is there a difference between a 25 year old car that was never sold (homologated) here and a car that's been here for 40 years? (To make it harder, what about a 1976 2002 sold in Europe, and brought here ten years ago?) Logic would lead you to think one way, but the law has nothing to do with logic, in my experience. 

[Mike Self]

Lotsa folks on the Board have either replaced their squarelight 5 mph bumpers with early chrome bumpers, and others, roundie and squarelight owners, have removed bumpers (front and rear) altogether.   Has anyone in this situation been involved in an accident (regardless of fault)?    What happened?  Did your insurance company hassle you WRT bumpers--or lack thereof?  How about the police investigating?

 

I suspect that in most US states, given our cars ages that swapping or even deleting bumpers isn't gonna cause a problem with the gendarmerie.  Outside the US?  Your results may vary...

 

mike

 

 

[jimk]

The 5 mph bumper law was one of those socialist laws where big brother knows what's best for you.  They were to reduce insurance losses, damage to your car.  The law meant more for the mfr to comply with than the user.  Who cares now? Nobody but you and your insurance.

[Seth Horwitz]

3 minutes ago, jimk said:

Nobody but you and your insurance.

 

No argument, but I'd like to not have to care, at all, and let my insurance underwriter worry about it. I'd gladly pay a few bucks more, or raise my deductible, than worry about getting rear ended by a truck, then somehow wind up getting sued, all while sitting at a stoplight and minding my own business. 

[Steven Hage]

I'm not sure how many states have similar laws but in Minnesota there's a law that says that vehicles equipped with collector plates are exempt from laws unless specifically stated so I can take my bumpers off and nobody really cares, I've sent insurance multiple photos of my car and they never brought it up

[Son of Marty]

Bumpers or not will come down to the state and it's laws as for being rear ended by a truck or SUV the bumpers wouldn't help a bit  as trucks and SUV don't have to meet the same bumper height standards and they will go right over the top☺️. 

[Seth Horwitz]

1 minute ago, Son of Marty said:

Bumpers or not will come down to the state and it's laws as for being rear ended by a truck or SUV the bumpers wouldn't help a bit  as trucks and SUV don't have to meet the same bumper height standards and they will go right over the top☺️. 

 

I know it won't help in the impact, as the 2002 makes a nice hood ornament for a truck. It's the correspondence between lawyers, afterward, that I'm thinking about. 

 

So, anyone from NY know the local laws, here? (I'm guessing they're as bad as other laws where my fellow countrymen do OK.)

[jrhone]

Think about this for a minute.  How many cars on the road have body kits?  Different bumpers? Removed Bumpers?  LOTS.  Just a reference.  My Porsche with upgraded bumpers that were fiberglass was hit in a rear end accident.  The bumper was split.  The insurance company that settled (not mine) ended up buying a NEW factory Turbo rear bumper to be modified and fitted to my car.  No they didn't ask if the rear bumper was factory, the body shop told them it was a Turbo style bumper and they wouldn't repair it so the agent authorized a factory bumper.  So no, you won't be in some legal battle if the bumper is modified or isn't there.  

[Jimmy]

32 minutes ago, jrhone said:

Think about this for a minute.  How many cars on the road have body kits?  Different bumpers? Removed Bumpers?  LOTS.  Just a reference.  My Porsche with upgraded bumpers that were fiberglass was hit in a rear end accident.  The bumper was split.  The insurance company that settled (not mine) ended up buying a NEW factory Turbo rear bumper to be modified and fitted to my car.  No they didn't ask if the rear bumper was factory, the body shop told them it was a Turbo style bumper and they wouldn't repair it so the agent authorized a factory bumper.  So no, you won't be in some legal battle if the bumper is modified or isn't there.  

 

Typically so-called "body kits" replace the cosmetic bumper cover, not the actual crash structure. 02 5mph bumpers are the crash structure, not a decoration.

[Gordon]

1 hour ago, Seth Horwitz said:

 

No argument, but I'd like to not have to care, at all, and let my insurance underwriter worry about it. I'd gladly pay a few bucks more, or raise my deductible, than worry about getting rear ended by a truck, then somehow wind up getting sued, all while sitting at a stoplight and minding my own business. 

If a truck or SUV rear ends your 02, you won't have to worry about your bumper. The truck or SUV bumper will clear your 02 bumper and impact the rear panel. 25 years ago, my stock former 74 2002 with diving boards was rear ended on a So Cal freeway by a Chevy S10 pickup and the rear panel took most of the impact. The damage was so severe, the 02 was totaled by the insurance company. There are a lot more pickups and SUVs on the roads now than there were 25 years ago so 02 bumpers won't be of much help if you are rear ended.

[jimk]

2 hours ago, Seth Horwitz said:

 

No argument, but I'd like to not have to care, at all, and let my insurance underwriter worry about it. I'd gladly pay a few bucks more, or raise my deductible, than worry about getting rear ended by a truck, then somehow wind up getting sued, all while sitting at a stoplight and minding my own business. 

Curious as to why the original post question.  If you want to keep them on, then do it.  i don't think you will get a legal opinion from an attorney here!  Who do you believe will get the traffic citation when you get rear ended?  That says who is at fault.

Edited March 1, 2019 by jimk

[thinksound_mike]

NY is a no fault state. You have to prove you weren't at fault, otherwise it's split 50/50.

 

Not sure if having a bumper matters for inspections or insurance here since most people don't even know what the car is. If you wanted to swap to early bumpers nobody would notice. If you took them off and put on an air dam or fiberglass bumper nobody would say anything. If the bumper was completely removed, especially in the rear, then maybe it would be more obvious. You can always get an inspection sticker from someone around here. They won't care because the car is so old.

 

I live in Brooklyn and have debated for the last eight years about either switching to early bumpers or tucking mine on my 74. I've decided against early bumpers for the sole fact that people here park by braille and they would get dented right away. Nice new bumpers are expensive and I'd honestly be heart broken if they were to get trashed while I was at dinner or whatever. I still have the diving boards intact for now. One less thing to worry about I guess.

 

On the front I don't think it's as big of a deal. If an SUV is parked in front of you and taps you backing up they clear the bumper anyways and just dent your belt line trim or your nose. 

[jmr_1602]

I figure if you have an insurance company that specializes in classic/antique cars you won’t have any issues.

How many hot rods are on the road? No bumpers, chopped roofs, some with out hoods or fenders. Places like hagerty would be lost in the wind if they didn’t provide their core customers with expected coverage.




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