Legality / Risk Bumper Removal (Replacement)

[j2002tii]

I am not an attorney but I was in the financial business with some pretty good knowledge of P&C insurance and worked with underwriters and agents.  Yes, insurance varies by state and I am not an expert on the statutes or regulations of any state.  That being said, having a modified car and not telling your insurance company would most likely be covered under fraud statutes.  Hagerty asks the question about modifications right on the application form as does every insurance company that I am familiar with.  Hagerty even has a separate category for modifieds, street rods, customs and replicas, etc.  My advice to everyone is to always speak with your insurance company about your specific car if it is not stock in any way.  They are the only people who may advise you correctly.  There are minimum safety standards that must be adhered to so if you tell your insurance company what your car is and the modifications they can help you get it insured.  What you do not want is for them to investigate after an accident and find that your car was not what you told them it was.  That is where the fraud part comes in and that can be really bad.  I would think that they would not be as concerned about you changing colors as they are about modifying structure, safety equipment, lighting, bumpers, engines, suspension and brakes, etc.  None of this is meant to scare anyone but the right people to ask this question is your insurance company or a licensed agent.  We live in a very litigious world.  The purpose of having insurance is to manage the potential massive risk so do not do anything that changes that.  Replacing your bumper after an accident might be the least of your worries.  Also, make sure to read and understand your policy before you need it.

[Chris_B]

I agree with most of this, but ultimately it seems unlikely that your bumper choice is going to have any impact on an insurance claim against you, unless the insurance company can somehow determine that your bumper replacement increased your liability. There is no fraud unless you are engaged in a scheme where "the anticipated target receives something of greater value—such as a loan, contract, investment, or gift—and then receives little or nothing in return" (per the FBI website...).

Edited March 2, 2019 by Chris_B
Correction

[j2002tii]

The definition of insurance fraud is a bit different than the FBI definition of fraud you cite.  One example is that the benefit of a lower premium because one didn’t tell them about a modification.  If an undisclosed modification was the cause of an accident or injury it would be a problem for the owner.  If one is concerned, just speak with your insurance company.  That is the most intelligent thing to do.  Pretty simple.

[jimk]

FYI Hagerty wants photos of the car before they issue a policy.

[Schnellvintage]

This is a very interesting topic.  "Factory" bumpers vs aftermarket vs modified all need to meet the required height (at the time of manufacture) measurement, to perform properly.  Think about this for a moment, how many vehicles (American, European, and Asian) have been lowered or had their suspension modified or lowered or suspension geometry changed (camber).  Do any of these mods have any liability of other drivers causing an accident? I believe the insurance companies now and allow for certain modifications.  Car manufactures will not warranty a modified vehicle, if still under their warranty.

FWIW.   Personally, bringing this out to a public forum, will likely be notifying insurance companies and will now likely change their policies and premiums for collector or older vehicles.  Its all about money, save your receipts.

Oh well.

$.02

[Chris_B]

"That being said, having a modified car and not telling your insurance company would most likely be covered under fraud statutes."

 

One of the essential elements of fraud is intent. Simply having a modified car is not fraud. Not telling your insurance company that you have a modified car to avoid paying higher premiums (or being refused coverage) or the like is fraud.

[Schnellvintage]

"That being said, having a modified car and not telling your insurance company would most likely be covered under fraud statutes."
 
One of the essential elements of fraud is intent. Simply having a modified car is not fraud. Not telling your insurance company that you have a modified car to avoid paying higher premiums (or being refused coverage) or the like is fraud.

Very true, hence keep the receipts.


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[jrhone]

How many lowered civics have been in accidents.  Probably tens of thousands.  How many were denied insurance because they were lowered.  None.  If it were the case it would be law suits that would bury insurance companies.  I have modified just about every car i have owned as my brother and my friends.  Never has a claim been challeneged because of modifications. Never.  And for the records Modified cars are NOT voided by car manufacturers.  What is voided is the part that has been modified.  Just last week a friends highly modified STi had oil and coolant mixing.  Took it to the dealer.  Modified.  Engine replaced under warranty because his mods had ZERO to do with the failure.   Thats the law.  I know so many people with modified Ferraris and Porsches that track them and are never denied warranty service to anything that hasnt been modified.  So do what u want with your cars but i will modify them to my hearts content and sleep well at night.  

[jrhone]

One Caveat to my above post....

If your modifications have an effect on your car having valid registration, that is one area that an insurance company can claim your car isn't covered.  Your insurance CAN be revoked if your vehicle registration is revoked (not just expired).  So if your local police are sticklers on ride height and proper bumpers and things like that...and they issue tickets to fix and you don't and your registration is revoked...then your insurance could revoke your insurance.  This could be an issue though, if they accept your premium, and they know its been revoked, they may still have to pay for any claims.  So in places that still have vehicle inspections, this may be a sticking point.  I know this was a huge point in SoCal for sportbikes for a while...aftermarket pipes...tickets and impoundings.  The reason was for canyon racing...they figured if they were annoying enough the racer crowd would move along instead of constantly being hassled.

[Seth Horwitz]

59 minutes ago, jrhone said:

How many lowered civics have been in accidents.  Probably tens of thousands.  How many were denied insurance because they were lowered.  None.  If it were the case it would be law suits that would bury insurance companies.  I have modified just about every car i have owned as my brother and my friends.  Never has a claim been challeneged because of modifications. Never.  And for the records Modified cars are NOT voided by car manufacturers.  What is voided is the part that has been modified.  Just last week a friends highly modified STi had oil and coolant mixing.  Took it to the dealer.  Modified.  Engine replaced under warranty because his mods had ZERO to do with the failure.   Thats the law.  I know so many people with modified Ferraris and Porsches that track them and are never denied warranty service to anything that hasnt been modified.  So do what u want with your cars but i will modify them to my hearts content and sleep well at night.  

 

Those Civics (I'm assuming you mean from recent decades) had stock bumpers, underneath the aftermarket bumper covers, and even being lowered were likely within the states' bumper laws for height. When it comes to dimensions, the regulations are actually quite lenient for bumpers, and lowering a modern car is unlikely to breach the measurements (as it pertains to bumpers) no matter how low you go as eventually the bottom hits the street. (It could break other regs, but that's separate.) The impact speed of bumpers appears to be a federal item, simply written for insurance claims, and that's where the clarity is missing. 

 

Further, bumpers are billed as a safety item (I'm not saying they are), so the modification of those is what's unclear. If you take out your passenger's airbag, and get in an accident, do you think your insurance company is going to pay for that person's medical bills, even if the airbags would no nothing? I wouldn't bet on it. Maybe, but to me it's not worth the risk. If I've taken anything from this thread it's that there doesn't appear to be a law that anyone can refer to that allows for modification of safety items on classic cars, your best (only?) bet is to clear any safety mods with your insurance company, and to get it in writing and put it in a safe deposit box. 

 

I went over the speed limit, once (I'm not copping to any more than that.). Everybody was doing it, and I don't think I would've gone to jail if I was caught, but it was against local speed ordinance and some lawyer would be happy to take me to court if there was an accident and I was given a ticket for a single mph over the limit. I've heard lots of anecdotal stories and people using logic, but a hard and fast rule seems to be missing. In New York, for example, a car over twenty five doesn't need an emissions check. Period. That's just a fact. Can a car have its original bumper changed, at any age? I don't have the answer to that, and haven't seen one above. I was hoping someone knew of a law similar to the emissions one that already exists. 

[Seth Horwitz]

14 minutes ago, jrhone said:

One Caveat to my above post....

If your modifications have an effect on your car having valid registration, that is one area that an insurance company can claim your car isn't covered.  Your insurance CAN be revoked if your vehicle registration is revoked (not just expired).  So if your local police are sticklers on ride height and proper bumpers and things like that...and they issue tickets to fix and you don't and your registration is revoked...then your insurance could revoke your insurance.  This could be an issue though, if they accept your premium, and they know its been revoked, they may still have to pay for any claims.  So in places that still have vehicle inspections, this may be a sticking point.  I know this was a huge point in SoCal for sportbikes for a while...aftermarket pipes...tickets and impoundings.  The reason was for canyon racing...they figured if they were annoying enough the racer crowd would move along instead of constantly being hassled.

 

Our posts crossed paths. That's interesting what you refer to. I've seen the opposite happen, around me. People have registrations and let insurance lapse (which raise the cost of insurance for the rest of us), but I haven't seen the reverse. Interesting. 

[Simeon]

If an insurance company asks you a direct question as to whether your car has been modified or not, and you respond in the negative, they will reserve the right to not pay out should this be incorrect. This is what insurance companies do - all types, why would car insurance be different?

 

They may not make any serious enquiries at the time you claim and maybe nobody (police, repairers etc) will tell them but if they find out, I guarantee that they will then use this as an opportunity not to pay because you knowingly gave them incorrect information. 

 

This is part of their business model. You can then go to court to try and claim that your modifications had nothing to do with your accident but that’s the wrong rabbit to be chasing. Firstly they have more lawyers than you do and secondly that’s not why they won’t be paying. They are not paying because you were not honest and didn’t give them the correct information to allow them to judge risk in the first place. 

[Seth Horwitz]

For me, I'm looking for the path of least resistance. I'm happy to tell the insurance company up front, before doing anything, and happy (not happy, but I'll do it) to pay a higher deductible. (As these regs were only introduced to keep low impact insurance claims down.) I'm not looking to hide anything, nor roll the dice. Will anything happen? Probably not. If it does, is there likely to be an issue? Also, likely not. In my personal circumstances, from experience, if it can go wrong, it will. I've been to court a few times, and always won my claims but, even when the law is on your side, it can take quite a long time and cost quite a bit of money. It's not pleasant. 

 

I was just curious to see if there was a "sure, you can do that because of federal law/regulation ABC123, and I've done it with insurance company XYZ," or "you're crazy, that's illegal, I tried talking to my insurance company and they laughed at me." Like so much else, this appears to be a shade of gray.