Brake options

[jrhone]

35 minutes ago, RCM3 said:

My rear VW kit was around $250 total. $80 for the brackets and hardware, $20 for junkyard calipers and carriers and brake-lines, $70 for the new discs, $30 for pads, $30 to turn downs the hubs, and $20 for rebuild kits for the calipers. Yes, I mentioned 13's will no longer fit. I researched extensively back when I was making this choice and its a no brainer vs 250mm drums if you're looking to upgrade your rear brakes. 

 

I do not have a photo of the spacer I use, but there is a full DIY guide on the net with photos and the walk through.

 

Thanks for the info. Not trying to be argumentative but you said quote "Slapping on used brake components isn't my thing" yet u used junkyard calipers and carriers?  I don't get the "no brainer" thing. 250mm drums is a BMW bolt on. No modifications needed. So what happens when you need a new rear hub for some reason unexpectedly?  You have to get a hub then machine it then install. Can't just find a good hub. That actually happened to me recently. Doing something routine on a Saturday mechanic discovered a bad Axle and Hub. He had a great condition used one and in an hour I was good as New and the strange noise in the rear end was gone. That would have been a completely different repair if I had the VW kit. Would have had to get the hubs machined which on a Saturday may have been impossible. Also braking power is nearly the same. The advantages are you don't have to adjust the drums a few times a year. Not really a "no brainer", just another option. 

[TobyB]

Don't forget to remove the residual pressure valve with the rear discs.  Otherwise, subtract 2 hp for dragging rear brakes!

 

heh.

 

t

who uses Saturn and Nissan parts, because racecar.

[oh2ryan]

4 hours ago, jrhone said:

 

Thanks for the info. Not trying to be argumentative but you said quote "Slapping on used brake components isn't my thing" yet u used junkyard calipers and carriers?  I don't get the "no brainer" thing. 250mm drums is a BMW bolt on. No modifications needed. So what happens when you need a new rear hub for some reason unexpectedly?  You have to get a hub then machine it then install. Can't just find a good hub. That actually happened to me recently. Doing something routine on a Saturday mechanic discovered a bad Axle and Hub. He had a great condition used one and in an hour I was good as New and the strange noise in the rear end was gone. That would have been a completely different repair if I had the VW kit. Would have had to get the hubs machined which on a Saturday may have been impossible. Also braking power is nearly the same. The advantages are you don't have to adjust the drums a few times a year. Not really a "no brainer", just another option. 

 

I did list that the calipers were rebuilt, not taken from the yard and installed (highly recommended obviously), the rebuild kits were listed in my approx. cost break down^^^. I'm not going to get into the hypothetical game of potential issues with the VW discs vs 250 drums.

 

The take home is there is an alternative to 250mm E21 drums, its arguably cheaper or the same cost, easier to maintain for most 02 owners, better resistance against brake fade, looks better behind the wheel, etc, etc. 

 

Just an option for the OP that I found useful for my S14 swapped 2002.

 

Best of luck OP!

[arminyack]

19 hours ago, arminyack said:

The 250mm drums fit inside my stock 1600 13" steelies. The front e21 vented disks w/ alfa calipers....not so much. The Opel steelies do fit, however, but only with the use of a 3mm spacer...or the grinding wheel.

I stand corrected. I run 13" Opel Rallye steelies. These fit fine. stock 1600 steelies DO NOT fit on 250mm drums. I got my wires crossed some how. Maybe is was all the dope and booze from my youth.

['76mintgrün'02]

15 hours ago, TobyB said:

t

who uses Saturn and Nissan parts, because racecar.

 

Carl recently posted a photo of what appear to be Saturn brakes.

They look much lighter alright!

                                  RacecaR!

[Jjmoonen]

I must be one of the few crackpots here that got carried away with the clicky thing (mouse) and went with the full front / rear Wilwood disc setup from IE. Not installed yet, but then again the entire suspension is on the floor too. I read a lot about the different disc conversion options on the site here. While I am not opposed to fabrication or modifications by any means I wanted all the changes I make to this car to be truly bolt on. So if I ever get stupid I can put it back to stock without a lot of hassle. So despite being more money, something like the Wilwood kits gave me the better brakes and the option of going back to stock easily by bolting the OEM junk back on. If my car was not a Tii, I wouldnt care. 

[CHIZUCK33]

So I just got an 74 02 I have that very set of VW calipers I was going to put on a Buggy I got but now I'm going to get another set for my 02. I see where to source the bracket what disc do I need? The buggy has a cheap 5 wide disc conversion from empi which was why I was upgrading the calipers. what size or part number do I need  for disc to fit the 02 rears

. Thanks

[M3M3]

Hi Chief,

with the VW calipers, just use the matching VW disk also.

[Son of Marty]

You'll also need to turn the rear hubs on the 02 down just a bit for the rotor to fit, there are drawings for the brackets and all the other info in the archives overall it's pretty straight forward.

[NYNick]

You guys are killing me.

I did the Big Brake upgrade on the front as part of my front suspension rehab...it's still on the garage floor but was a pretty easy deal.

 

I thought I read on the Brake sticky that the rear stock 230mm's were fine for spirited street as long as the shoes are good ones (see the IE site) and the system is cleaned up and working properly. I also thought I read (as Toby said) that rather than struggle with the 300 foot pound hub, just redo your stock rear drums along with your Big Brake upgrade and you'll be fine.

 

So..that's what I WAS planning. Now, not so sure.

Edited January 11, 2018 by NYNick

[TobyB]

I tracked volvo fronts and 230 rears for years,  Raced with the 250s for at least 3 seasons.

 

They aren't DOING a whole hell of a lot, but that's pretty normal- 70% front bias is usually built into most cars.

 

The best argument for rear discs is that now you don't have to mess with rear shoe adjustments.  On the

street, that's not a big deal, because they hardly wear and the drums don't get hot enough to expand much.

On the track, the rears grow quite a bit, and the pedal sinks accordingly.

 

I'd say try it, drive it for a while, and see what you think.

 

t

 

[Lee]

10 minutes ago, TobyB said:

I tracked volvo fronts and 230 rears for years,  Raced with the 250s for at least 3 seasons.

 

They aren't DOING a whole hell of a lot, but that's pretty normal- 70% front bias is usually built into most cars.

 

The best argument for rear discs is that now you don't have to mess with rear shoe adjustments.  On the

street, that's not a big deal, because they hardly wear and the drums don't get hot enough to expand much.

On the track, the rears grow quite a bit, and the pedal sinks accordingly.

 

I'd say try it, drive it for a while, and see what you think.

 

t

 

 

It is true that 2/3 front  vs 1/3 rear is the usual proportion of braking power on a modern car with close to 50/50 weight distribution. But let's also remember that our venerable 2002s are very far from having 50/50 weight distribution. ;-) Which is why a few of us move the engine and transmission back by as far as possible in order to improve weight balance. What I mean, is that on a 2002, rear braking power/bias is much less than, say, on an e46. ;-)

[TobyB]

Oh, sure,

 

but let us also remember that most of my experience has BEEN with 2002s,

and that I was speaking  particularly of the 2002s that I have tracked and raced.

70/30 was Tilton's recommendation, and I found that it kept the bias bar within

3-4 turns of centered on most tracks.

 

A modern car can afford to muck around with brake bias- ABS will fix it.

So they can run more rear brake, because when it slips a bit, ABS can dynamically balance it.

A purely mechanical car can't do that, or the average motorway driver would run the risk of

looping it in a panic stop.

 

I still say, drive it a while, and see what you think.  Rear discs are quite nice.  But not essential.

 

t

 

 

[Lee]

Isn't 70/30 and "a few clicks on the balance bar" close to 75/25 (or 3/4 front and 1/4 rear) vs 2/3 front and 1/3 rear on a more balanced car? Which was my point ;-)

[TobyB]

Ah, you were saying that the rears are used even LESS on a 2002. 

And therefore, the stock oversized parking drum brake is just fine for a normally- driven car...

 

t

 

reading comprehension...