An you thought '02 prices were getting crazy

[Mike Self]

Looks like the bar has been upped once again:  http://collectorscarworld.com/listings/1974-bmw-2002/  Asking and getting are two entirely different animals, but six figures?  

 

 

mike

[jrkoupe]

I do believe turbos will get silly silly  prices soon.........

 

but this vendor is over the top......i own a z coupe also.........his asking is stupid......yet the touring seems ok $$$$$?

Edited April 7, 2017 by jrkoupe

[mac]

any possible buyer will search the internet and (at best) offer the seller about HALF of the asking price.

 

mac.

[Conserv]

For $166K, I would expect the hood supports behind the front grilles to be correctly painted black (with a brush, in semi-gloss).  Therefore, I'm going to shave $100K off for my best offer!  ?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Conserv

[Jam3422]

This car has a very prominent full page ad in the current issue of Sports Car Market, something that would not have happened 1-2 years ago, especially when you consider the other choices the dealer had for their ad - they have a 72 Ghibli which is a pretty hot car right now.   Interestingly, the pricing on the other cars this dealer (Driver Source in Houston) is selling are not that out of line at all, at least for advertised dealer pricing.

 

 

[02Anders]

They want HOW much....???  

 

Regardless how perfect this Turbo was, that would still be a rather hefty price to ask.  But when I from one picture alone can spot a whopping FOUR faults on the car, then the price is no longer just hefty - it's utterly ridiculous!!

 

Steve, it's not just the upright hood supports behind the grill that fail by not being brushed semi-gloss black.  At least that's a fairly simple thing to put right.  But on the same pic it's also painfully obvious that who ever restored this Turbo really didn't know a whole lot about 02's.  The top seem between the front outer panel and the front wings should of course have been lead-loaded so as to be totally smooth.  To put this right now would involve painting, with which you would either have to fully respray the Turbo again, or risk getting a slight tone difference in the Chamonix paintwork.  Furthermore, the front roundel is a modern plastic one rather than one of the correct metal items with raised letters.  And then there's also the small cap that's missing from the hole in the front spoiler through which you can screw in the tow hook - these seem to always be missing on Turbo's.

Last but not least, looking at the other pictures the Turbo is also wearing the flag door mirrors, but if it's really a '74 as advertised it should have the trapezoid door mirrors.

 

Now is it just me that feels this asking price is rather iffy, when I can find five faults from only three rather superficial pictures??  Just imagine how many faults we could potentially find during an in-the-flesh inspection...!!

If ever a 2002 Turbo should cost this much (and I personally doubt that it should...), I would most certainly expect it to be presented a whooooole lot better than this example. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by 02Anders

[Preyupy]

I know of at least 3 turbos that have sold in the last 8 months for more than $115k that are a lot worse than this car.  I want to stand back and see what happens with this car. I'm not going to throw any stones, it is a beautiful car and it is worth what ever someone is willing to pay for it.  I'm not quite sure why so many people with absolutely no skin in the game get all bent out of shape when a car like this comes on the market.  I for one am enjoying the crazy rise in Turbo values.  Mine is not for sale but I'm sure my executor will be very happy. 

[02Les]

It was resto'd by Oldenzaal Classics, Netherlands. They had it on Ebay last December with a "buy it now" of $125k. The auction ended early.

[02Anders]

Oh, and I should perhaps clarify...  I was in my previous post here, in no way trying to imply that all our 02's need to be picture-perfect OEM representations.  I currently own three 02's, and while one on them probably comes pretty damned close to being that good, my two others most definitely are not.  And that's fine!  At the end of the day, it's only important that we have a bit of fun with our beloved little 02's.  We need to drive them, mess about with them in the garage, and more than anything enjoy the social enthusiast community to which they are en entry ticket.  Luckily that can be achieved equally well with a rough or a decent 02, as it can with a perfect 02.  My point with regard to the Turbo was, that if you're going to ask that kind of money for a product, you really need to make sure that what you're selling is above and beyond.  Not just a decent example...

 

4 hours ago, Preyupy said:

I know of at least 3 turbos that have sold in the last 8 months for more than $115k that are a lot worse than this car.  I want to stand back and see what happens with this car. I'm not going to throw any stones, it is a beautiful car and it is worth what ever someone is willing to pay for it.  I'm not quite sure why so many people with absolutely no skin in the game get all bent out of shape when a car like this comes on the market.  I for one am enjoying the crazy rise in Turbo values.  Mine is not for sale but I'm sure my executor will be very happy. 

 

Preyupy, I'm not too sure that I can agree with you here.  In my opinion, everyone that bothers to be on this forum, actually "have some skin in the game".  Simply because this is our hobby!  And sadly our hobby is currently changing rather rapidly - largely due to investors who are much more concerned about making money, than they are about enjoying a classic old car.  But the enthusiasts got here first!!  Just like many others on this forum, I bought my first 02 when it was just a cheap 19 year old car, which very few people really cared for.  It most certainly wasn't a collectors item, nor did very many people even consider that I would ever potentially become such a thing.  But that didn't matter to us.  We bought these old 02's because we liked to drive them!  It wasn't about the money or even about the show-off-effect, because there quite frankly wasn't any.  Only much later, did the investors get in on the game, and their hunger for a quick profit is sadly driving many of those original enthusiasts out of the hobby that they so love.

 

Let's analyse what happens when prices are sharply driven up on classic cars....

1) Many (real) enthusiasts will suddenly no longer be able to afford their dream classic car.  As an enthusiast, I think that's rather sad.  Besides my profound love for 02's, I have a confession to make...  I have always - since I was but a small boy - dreamt of owning a Alfa Romeo Montreal.  Some 10 years ago, it actually seemed just about achievable.  I wasn't that far off.  But prices have skyrocketed quicker than I have been able to save up.  I have now had to accept that a Montreal will forever only be a dream.

2) Even those that luckily already have one or more classics in their garage, will suddenly struggle to justify keeping their pride and joy.  It hasn't gotten quite that bad with 02's yet, but for arguments sake, let's just say I had bought something like a longhood 911 or an early flatfloor E-type some 25 - 30 years ago for peanuts.  Well with the current value of those cars, even if I had originally bought the car for next to nothing, I couldn't possibly justify to my family having so much equity placed in a toy that I kept in the garage!  I would be forced to sell it, so all those funds could go towards other things such as the mortgage or university for the kids.  Needless to say, all of those concerns wouldn't be an issue, if my (imaginary) longhood 911 or flatfloor E-type was still only of any interest to a small group of hardcore enthusiasts and thus only worth peanuts.

 

3) As values on our classic cars skyrocket, the manufacturers of the spare parts we require to keep our cars going, will also charge more and more for the same spare part.  It happened with 911 parts some 10 years ago, and 02 spares have equally taken quite a hike up in price in recent years.  Bizarrely the quality of those spares seems to have generally gone down at the same time the prices went up...??

 

4) As values on our classic cars skyrocket, sadly very professional and targeted thefts are also becoming more and more common!

 

5) As a direct result of 3 and 4 happening, insurance premiums for our classic cars are rising, and will naturally (from an insurance companies point of view) have to continue to do so.

 

6) Regardless how much of an enthusiast we claim to be, can we even justify continuing to drive our classic cars??  Again, this is perhaps not an issue for the average 02 owner just yet.  But let's go back to the longhood 911 or flatfloor E-type.  If I actually owned one of those, I sincerely hope that regardless of value, I would continue to enjoy my classic car on long and spirited cross-country roadtrips.  That is after all where I have always found the greatest joy in classic car ownership.  And driving your classic car cross-country in all weather and/or through dense traffic and/or parking it up outside a motel on your travels, has never been an issue when the car is worth $ 10k.  But would you start to worry about it if your classic car was suddenly worth $ 50k??  Or how about $ 100k??  Damn it NO, I'm not going to let it spoil my fun - I would still drive my beloved classic car!!  Okay, how about $ 500k then??  Uhmmmm.... yeah, I would worry!  And I'm not sure I would be able to enjoy those spirited cross-country trips as much.

 

So please explain to me how you feel "we have absolutely no skin in the game"??  
Please explain to me how rising prices are possibly a good thing for the proper hardcore classic car enthusiast??
Personally, I would be a very happy man, if good 2002's would forever remain $ 10k cars.  A factory Turbo could be $20k.  A Montreal, longhood 911 and flatfloor E-type could perhaps be $ 30k.  And the world would no doubt be a better place....  

Edited April 7, 2017 by 02Anders

[TobyB]

Err, I'm not the target audience for this car...

 

t

 

[COOP]

OMG, 02Anders...With all due respect, what an endless fount of drivel-spew. Ours is a Capitalist economy. If you find it so "rather sad" that the prices for things are driven by the forces of supply and demand, you can always move to a Communist bastion, where you don't have to deal with such offending annoyances as market forces...or with basic freedoms for that matter.

 

Who says you can't be an an investor AND a "proper, hard core enthusiast?" You? You lay out these two, diametrically opposing camps as if they're mutually exclusive, which they most certainly are not. Perhaps it would be better to more specifically define your two make-believe groups for the sake of academic exercise as "rabid, long-time car enthusiasts of modest means" on the one hand and "ruthless, wealthy, arriviste speculators who don't give two shits about cars" on the other.

 

To highlight the flaws of your classification system, picture the billionaire car collector at the Monterey Historics, flogging his $20M Ferrari around Laguna at the risk of unimaginable peril with an ear-to-ear grin. What if 15 years ago he was a struggling, Stanford drop-out, slaving away on a tech startup dream with a ratty tii in the driveway that he autocrossed on the weekends and bloodied his knuckles wrenching on? Is he now less of an "original" and "proper" car enthusiast than you, having sold his company to Facebook for a fortune  and gladly dropping $150K on an '02 Turbo? C'mon now.

 

The irony here is that your self-authorized distinction makes the grass roots, "original enthusiasts" appear far more elitist and snooty than the fat-cat investors with briefcases overflowing with Benjamins, who by your decree must naturally care less about the cars themselves.

 

I'm sorry, I've read lots of great, engaging posts from you over the years, but that ain't one of them.

 

COOP

Edited April 8, 2017 by COOP

[2002Scoob]

It was resto'd by Oldenzaal Classics, Netherlands. They had it on Ebay last December with a "buy it now" of $125k. The auction ended early.

Automatically worth 100k less if it was touched by Oldenzaal Classics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[danco_]

58 minutes ago, 2002Scoob said:

 

 

Automatically worth 100k less if it was touched by Oldenzaal Classics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

But why though.

 

Back up your statement with facts! I'd hate to be a company who restores cars, only to get bashed online by a keyboard warrior with no real facts.

I'd love to know why you said what you did. 

 

 

Purely academic of course. 

 

But seriously, why. 

[TobyB]

internet jelly.

 

i was thinking today, as I was trying to stretch E46 boots onto their calipers (yes, Ray, you warned me.)

that if I had a hundred- fifty thou to spare, I could spend it by Thursday.  But I'd have a hell of a lot more junk,

AND a hell of a lot more fun with it, because once a turbo 2002 is somehow worth an average house in the

depressed areas of the country, how are you going to be able to take it out and drive it? It might rain! 

 

t

admits to jelly.

[02Anders]

Hi Daniel,

 

You seem to have taken some offence to my writing.  I do apologise.  I can assure you, that you of all people were certainly NOT the target of my opinions...

 

But you suggest that I should have written:

 

20 hours ago, COOP said:

.... it would be better to more specifically define your two groups for the sake of academic exercise as "rabid car enthusiasts of modest means" on the one hand and "ruthless, wealthy speculators who don't give two shits about cars" on the other.

 

However, let me point out that I did not write those words - you did.  And the reason I didn't write those words, is because that is no where near to my view on the subject.
If you could be bothered, can I ask you to please go back and re-read my little rant.  You'll notice that not once do I divide people in to groups based on their financial means.  Not once do I say that you can't be wealthy - or stinking rich for that matter - and still be a true classic car enthusiast.  Of course you can!  Several of my classic car buddies have financially managed significantly better than I have, and hence have more expensive toys too.  But I most certainly do not view them as lesser enthusiasts because of that!  Daniel, while I haven't had the chance to meet you out there in that weird thing we call the real world, the impression you leave here on the forum is definitely that of a pure and true enthusiast!  No doubt about it... 

 

I do not judge people on the amount of money they have - or don't have for that matter.  Instead I try to judge them on their actions.  If someones actions are that of an enthusiast, then they're in my good book - regardless of how well off they are.  But if someones actions concerning classic cars are purely that of an investor, well, then they're sadly going to end up in my bad book.  I maintain, that those people who are into classic cars purely to make a quick profit, are not doing our hobby any good.  Surely Daniel, you too have come across those guys.  That can equally be someone with very small financial means trying to buy cheap old wrecks and flip them without putting any effort whatsoever into the car, purely to make a quick buck on some enthusiast.  Or it can be a wealthy investor, whose only reason to be in the classic car game is because he sees a financial opportunity there.  Yes, it's a free market, and both those individuals obviously have their right to do so.  But I equally have a right to feel that it's not doing our hobby any good.

 

Daniel, by all means feel free to disagree with me.  But if you do so, please disagree with what I have actually written, and not what you perceive might or might not ly behind my written word.  And if you in fact still disagree with me, I would be genuinely interested to hear your view upon those six points I put forward, explaining how I feel these rapidly increasing market prices are effecting our hobby in a negative way.  Differing opinions are always interesting!  If you see a positive effect as a result of one or more of those six points, I would be intrigued to hear it...

Edited April 8, 2017 by 02Anders