LED Headlight Issue

[OldRoller]

One of the finishing steps to a road worthy 76 was the installation of the led headlights. These lights are from DeltaLights, true led designed reflectors, flat glass lens, high and low beam separation.

The issue when plugged to the harness is no difference when switching beams. Relays working, 12.8 volts to individual terminals when switched. Good beams, just didn't switch.

While investigating I unplugged one light and reconnected the old seal beam. On trying the lights, BOTH led and old seal beam switched beams as designed. Further testing, I switched the sides, sealed beam to the other harness, etc, and got the same result. So both led units work with a sealed beam connected. 

That led me to the car's relays, swapped them around and got the same result. My only conclusion is the led's are not pulling enough current to fully engage the relay contacts or something to that effect. 

So... install a resistor inline to simulate the sealed beam load? Or take the relays out of the circuit? i would prefer not to do that. I'm building this car for my friend, and he's adamant on the lights, as they have amber halos that flash with the turn signals. High visibility on a small car and all that.

So I pass this conundrum to the vast knowledge of this collection of sage individuals! 

 

[2002iii]

I would try the resistors.

[tech71]

1 hour ago, OldRoller said:

I'm building this car for my friend, and he's adamant on the lights, as they have amber halos that flash with the turn signals. High visibility on a small car and all that.

Some additional circuitry in there then, I immediately find that suspect.

Got an internal wiring diagram for these whizzbangs?

Perhaps you should try to de adamentize your friend😁

It appears from the pic that when the turn signal/halo is on the headlight is not. Thats no good.

 

Edited February 1 by tech71

[Mike G]

I ran into this issue recently with morimoto led bulbs on a 2001 ranger. I spent hours documenting the various combinations in which the lights would/wouldn’t work. They were adamant about issuing a refund instead of helping me figure it out after I tried their resistors and anti flicker harness. 
 

sorry this isn’t helpful but if a multimillion dollar company with dozens of customer service reps doesn’t want to take on the challenge you might be money ahead telling your friend to try Holley retro brites. 

[Mike Self]

This is kinda puzzling to me, as on a '76--as originally wired--the low beams are separately fused, so I don't see how replacing one LED headllight with a sealed beam would affect the other.  And, unless you added 'em, neither low beam lamp has a relay; only the high beams, each of which share a common fuse.

 

In addition, a relay is triggered by the switch (in this case the headlight switch or the high/low beam stalk); the amperage draw of the headlight has nothing to do with the relay's operation--it's the recipient of the current passing through the relay.  And on a squarelight, only the high beams have a relay from the factory...And roundies don't have any relays in the headlight circuits.

 

So...there's something else amiss there.  I'm still puzzling through using LEDs on my turn signals (with some help for FAQers) without having to mess with the OEM flasher, so I can't tell you about your LED headlights.  But I don't see how the low beams affect each other, or how they affect the relay's operation.

 

mike

[dlacey]

On the >73 cars the headlamps are wired in a clever way so that dip & full beam cannot be turned-on together. As I recall, the full beam relay is earthed thru the dipped beam bulb filament... If that filament is energised then there's no earth and the full beam relay won't operate...if dipbeam is un-energised, the resistance of the filament is low enough to provide earth path for the relay (hi beam relay works)...smart.

 

But when we replace the resistive bulb filament with an LED bulb system, this "secondary function" of the dipped beam bulb to act as the earth for the full beam relay doesn't work.

 

This may be your issue?

Edited February 1 by dlacey

[OldRoller]

8 hours ago, tech71 said:

Some additional circuitry in there then, I immediately find that suspect.

The circuitry for the halos and turn signal switchbacks is completely isolated/separate from the headlamp led units, and function independently. The halos (some call them 'angel eyes') come on with ignition on, and the turn signal switches to amber until cancelled, then goes back to white halo. In the pic the right side is halo on, no headlamp. 

 

DeltaLights has been responsive and is looking into the issue.  On a chance I thought someone would have had a similar issue before. The investigation continues.

[OldRoller]

7 hours ago, Mike Self said:

without having to mess with the OEM flasher

The lights (rear, park/turn) have been changed to the led 1156/1157 versions. Flasher has been updated to an EL13L1 flasher, and they work perfect. As noted, the park turn circuit is completely isolated from the headlamp operation. 

No changes have been made to the relays or other circuits. The cluster retains the original incandescents. All grounds have been checked and verified. With the old sealed beams install the system works as designed. 

 

[OldRoller]

8 hours ago, Mike Self said:

neither low beam lamp has a relay

I have been under the impression that there are two headlamp relays. There are three next to the 76's voltage regulator... horn, high beam, and another that I assumed was low beam, looking at John76's diagram.

                                                                                           Looking at the diagram, in low beam the relay grounds through the high beam filament and high beam indicator and powered by fuse 9 and 10. When switched to high beam, the relay grounds on term 85, power through fuse 11, feeds voltage to white/violet wire to other high beam and to terminal  85 of the low beam relay previously used as ground for the low beams.

High beam indicator lights. My assumption is that its done this way to prevent both filaments from burning at the same time. The led unit provides no path to ground for the low beam relay save the filament of the high beam indicator which is too small to provide enough to energize the relay. I believe that is why the units work with one old sealed beam installed on one side.

 

Am I wrong in this assumption? The coffee is either not working or has kicked into overdrive...😵.                      *dlacey's post was, I think, spot on!                                                              

Edited February 1 by OldRoller

[2002iii]

5 hours ago, OldRoller said:

I have been under the impression that there are two headlamp relays. There are three next to the 76's voltage regulator... horn, high beam, and another that I assumed was low beam, looking at John76's diagram.

                                                                                           Looking at the diagram, in low beam the relay grounds through the high beam filament and high beam indicator and powered by fuse 9 and 10. When switched to high beam, the relay grounds on term 85, power through fuse 11, feeds voltage to white/violet wire to other high beam and to terminal  85 of the low beam relay previously used as ground for the low beams.

High beam indicator lights. My assumption is that its done this way to prevent both filaments from burning at the same time. The led unit provides no path to ground for the low beam relay save the filament of the high beam indicator which is too small to provide enough to energize the relay. I believe that is why the units work with one old sealed beam installed on one side.

 

Am I wrong in this assumption? The coffee is either not working or has kicked into overdrive...😵.                      *dlacey's post was, I think, spot on!                                                              

Sounds like your going to have to rewire it so the high and low beams are separate.

[OldRoller]

1 hour ago, 2002iii said:

rewire it so the high and low beams are separate.

Yep, that's the way I see it. Working on the schematic for that. Looks like a 5 pole relay triggered off the high beam blue-white wire to make/break the ground to the low beam relay. I don't want to cut the harness up in case a future owner wants a change.

Stay tuned!
 

 

[Gordon]

As you can tell, I'm not a fan of LED bulbs. Maybe technology has gotten better over the years but I've been blinded a few times by cheap aftermarket LEDs.   I think money is better spent on these for your 2002.
https://www.busdepot.com/h6024k  Plug and play for square tail light 02's, for roundies, add a relay.

 

[Son of Marty]

I just like to give the led crowd a shot of my 2 100 watt super Oscars one is a driving light and the other is a pencil  beam. After all if they have the right to light pollution so do I the only difference is the Cibie's throw tight focused beam not just scatter light everywhere.

Edited February 3 by Son of Marty

[OldRoller]

Not a fan of cheap led bulbs myself. Putting a cheap led bulb in an old housing designed for a filament bulb... you get what you pay for, as in junk.

 

LED technology has improved leaps and bounds in the past three years. Housings and beams are tailored for intensity, spread, focus and clarity to an amazing degree. Of course, the more you spend the better the light. We've all been struck in the eyes by cheap leds, blue and green blinders, and pickups hoisted off the ground so high they cannot adjust their lights any lower than the roof of the local brew den. On the other hand, newer vehicles with plastic lensed lights are often sun scorch faded and hazed, reducing light output to a drizzle of yellow spread useless in any weather condition. 

 

Pros of LED headlights are many: reduced electrical load, more adjustable beam focus, better light production in the Kelvin scale producing a natural white light (4000-5000 Kelvin is considered the best for the human eye), and in the newer lights component complication ( wiring, drivers, etc) has been upgraded to lights that simply plug in to the 3 slot headlamp harnesses. Most good lights have glass lenses that do not fade from UV exposure. "Forward sensing" technology is being introduced that diminishes beam production when sensing oncoming lights, reducing glare at the oncoming driver. Headlamps are available that have "Halos" for daytime running lights and "switchback" circuitry to provide additional yellow turn signals for improved visibility for other drivers.

 

Cons are to be considered also: Cost is the main one. Can you get a good quality light for the same as an H4 unit? No. Good lights go in the hundreds. Some cars (as in our 02's) require some modification to the circuitry to accommodate for system operation. 

 

As the technology increases, costs will come down. Demand for incandescent/filament lights will decrease and costs for them will go up (been to a big box store looking for a 60 watt house bulb lately?). 

 

As always, it's the owner's choice. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3 by OldRoller

[Sparkles]

12 hours ago, OldRoller said:

As the technology increases, costs will come down. Demand for incandescent/filament lights will decrease and costs for them will go up (been to a big box store looking for a 60 watt house bulb lately?). 

 

As always, it's the owner's choice. 

I've already been finding some older bulb sizes costing a lot more in incandescent than LED replacements. 20+ a pair when the LED units are like nine or twelve for three to five in much better quality? Kind of hard to say no unless you're really stubborn about the originality aspect.

And that owner's choice bit. I really wish more people would remember that and keep their rude comments to themselves. There's enough negativity in the world without adding more for silly reasons.