Early Euro 2002tii - Transmission and Differential Decision

[oh2ryan]

Alright 2002FAQers, I am at a crossroads of sorts on the restoration of this Italian 04/ 1971 Baikal 2002tii. I have spent about a year hunting for every part to make this car as correct as possible and accessorized as it could have once been back in 1971. Having said that, I am now torn on the choice of transmission and differential. Having another late night conversation with @danco_ about this very thing has had me thinking more and more about this choice. This car is something I plan to take to Monterey, something that will be graded and judged. 

 

Should I run a 4 speed and a proper early 2002tii rear end versus the Getrag 245 and E21 3,91LSD?

 

I may be one of the few out there thinking of removing a 5 speed and freshened LSD for a factory 4 speed. I want to hear the thoughts of the seasoned 2002 owners, the purists, and those that have had a 2002tii be assigned a very high value... what would you install in this 2002tii?

 

-R

 

PS - can we please avoid the whole conversation that 2002s are meant to be driven and 2002s aren't meant to be garage queen/ collector's items. As a reminder I have gone this route many times, most recently with an S14 swapped squaretail that was driven hard regularly. I am far more excited in the chase for "perfection" right now.

[Son of Marty]

Seeing as how you want to park your car on THE LAWN then the 3.45 and 4 speed or c/r 5 speed are your best  bet IMHO. 

[Conserv]

13 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

Seeing as how you want to park your car on THE LAWN then the 3.45 and 4 speed or c/r 5 speed are your best  bet IMHO. 

 

+1

 

And I’ve said the following before: in the ‘70’s, we drove these cars without overdrive transmissions, because the factory never offered an overdrive transmission. I love me a stock ‘02! ?

 

Just as a note to how tough things were in the Olden Days, I — and thousands of other ‘02 owners — would regularly take these horseless carriages on 6-hour trips, even if they had 3.90 (1976) and 4.11 (1600-2) differentials, and no overdrive.... ??

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Conserv

[jgerock]

Were the original tunnel brackets removed when the 5 speed swap was performed?  Do you have the 4 speed tranny and driveshaft handy?  Unless concours judges crawl beneath cars and you haven't altered the shifter  nobody can tell what you have.

[oh2ryan]

12 minutes ago, jgerock said:

Were the original tunnel brackets removed when the 5 speed swap was performed?  Do you have the 4 speed tranny and driveshaft handy?  Unless concours judges crawl beneath cars and you haven't altered the shifter  nobody can tell what you have.

 

Nothing has been altered aside from some

massaging of the trans tunnel that was done very well. Something I can undo easily also. 

 

I thought this same thing, no one will crawl under the car to inspect it. And I do not have a driveshaft for the 4 speed I have. I do not have the original differential either. 

[Simeon]

You are over thinking it. Stick with what you have. If they suffer any dramatic failures then choose what you replace them with (even then, I would probably still stick with what I had). 

[TobyB]

We're not going to make this decision for you- you have to decide.

 

I have cars to drive them.  If that's not priority #1 for you, my choices don't make sense for you.

 

Parking cars on grass makes them rust, anyway...

 

heh

 

t

is just jealous 'cause all his shit is junk...

 

[rstclark]

7 hours ago, TobyB said:

We're not going to make this decision for you- you have to decide.

 

I have cars to drive them.  If that's not priority #1 for you, my choices don't make sense for you.

 

Parking cars on grass makes them rust, anyway...

 

heh

 

t

is just jealous 'cause all his shit is junk...

 

 

[rstclark]

The 5 speed should not be viewed as a negative and after all it can be reverted to a 4 speed very inexpensively for the purest 

[Conserv]

41 minutes ago, rstclark said:

The 5 speed should not be viewed as a negative and after all it can be reverted to a 4 speed very inexpensively for the purest 

 

We’re not talking about the general market here — where I would certainly agree with this comment. Ryan is specifically talking about Monterey judging here. I don’t know the judging classes and standards used in Monterey, but I do know that in many concours, a 1970 Cuda or a 1970 280SL is going to have points taken off for having a transmission not available on that car, from the factory, in 1970.... ?

 

So I guess, Ryan, you need to drill down, and (1.) decide what class you’re trying to place the car in, and (2.) examine the judging standards for that class.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Conserv

[mac]

Taking the car to Monterey, to be judged?  

 

What in God's name makes you. or anyone else, think judges won't look for ORIGINALLY?  Like judges won't check under the car?  You got another think coming grasshopper!  I used to do it all the time. Separates the men from the boys. 

 

This from a retired "evil" (their words, not mine) concours judge. 

 

Mac.

[oh2ryan]

3 options then:

 

Install 4 speed

Install dogleg 5 speed

Install 245 with dogleg shift knob to camouflage the issue

 

The last one is a joke. I guess I’ll have to get a WTB ad going for proper 4 speed bits.   

[FunElan]

If you're going for 100 point restoration....then yes, you should put the original equipment back in. I look forward to seeing it at Monterey! Baikal is one of my favorite colors. 

 

Also, selfishly, I may be interested in your 3.91. Mine has a hum between 55-65 mph.

[HBChris]

The BMW CCA has no 100 point judging criteria for originality.  And at a non BMW judged event I would question anyone claiming to be an originality expert on early BMWs.

 

If you are attending Legends of the Autobahn, the 02 Concours class does not include originality, all judging is based on cleanliness.  Attention to detail like correct matching hose clamps can be a tie breaker when I judge.

 

If attending The Quail, judging is by the competitors in your class, who knows what they will value.  I am not aware of any other judged events during Car Week in Monterey other than Pebble Beach and Concorso.

 

If looking for max eventual sales price I think the five speed adds value, the four speed can be provided to the buyer if they want it, there are no matching numbers with these after all.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by HBChris

[danco_]

Not going to lie to you dude. I had that conversation after 6 shots of Jameson whiskey, but I believe our conversation was fruitful. I did my best to sound coherent.