1966 1600 in Boxes : Buy or Not ? Value ?

[73tiiDavidPA]

Greetings all-wise and hawk-eye FAQ'rs

 

As other posts I have made hinted at, there is a 1966 1600 which I may have the opportunity to purchase next month.  The car is an early 1966 1600 (vin 1505146) in Bristol Grey.  The car is currently owned by the original owner.  It was an original US sale car.  It is part way through a restoration process which has been at a standstill for about 2 years.  The owner had a shop disassemble and repair several areas of rust with parts from another 1966 donor car.  The body shell now has a fresh coat of Bristol, and is partially reassembled.  The carpet is down and some other bits put on.  Most of the car is in boxes.  There are lots of parts in boxes, some of the I've seen and some are new and correct.  The engine is in another state and will be re-joined with the body when the owner returns next month.  The engine was disassembled and the rebuild / rebuilt status is sketchy.  Supposedly he was unable to find a competent shop to fully rebuild the engine and did some of the work / re-assembly himself.  Like i said, sketchy, but I'll find out more about the engine when it returns from out of state with the owner.  The engine is suppose to be matching numbers.  The car has been converted to a 12 volt system.  I have a few photos of the car, delicately taken when I didn't know whether or not the car was for sale.  Since then I've spoken briefly with the owner and he's open to agreeing upon a price.  No exact price was mentioned, just that we should be able to come to an agreement.  I've learned since moving to the South, that these type of negotiations are best done slowly, very slowly.  The shop the car is at will be happy to see it gone.  The shop owner has also let the owner know it would be months of work to reassemble the car.  

 

My plan it to sell the project '74tii I have and purchase the 1600.  I own a nice survivor '73tii, so I don't need another tii.  The plan (fully endorsed by the wife - lol)  always was to get the '74tii back on the road to let someone else enjoy.  I might even turn a small profit, but mostly have enjoyed learning some basics while repairing it.  The 1600 would (for me) be a several year project of reassembly given the time I can allot to it.    

 

So.... My thought is to put a number in the owner's head before he arrives from out of state so he can mull it over and come to terms with the fact that he's not sitting on a pot of gold so to speak.  The owner has of course a sentimental attachment to the car - he bough it off the VW showroom floor in 1967 - 50 years ago.  He does realize with his age and other financial obligations that completing the restoration is perhaps a bridge too far.  My thought here is to avoid him arriving, seeing the car, bringing the engine along, and coming up with a unrealistic price.  If he has some number from me in his head, though he might initially think its way too low, he'll come to realize its the best he's going to get, and in a generally painless, timely fashion.  I figure I'll give him a range depending upon a close inspection of the complete package. 

 

I'm posting this now, because I'd like the boards shared wisdom on this next step (and suggestions of other steps too).  Right now my thoughts on what would be helpful are :

 

1.  Sale / offer strategy : put a price range out there now, to soften the ground for the real negotiations.  Pros / Cons / other options ?

2.  Value range : this is very tough I know.  I don't want to end up upside down on the car.  Certainly knowing what a '66 1600 top value is would help (I do see a BAT '69 1600 online - currently at $11,600 - which closes in a few days - and a not met reserve '69 1600 which topped at $28,250).  Hagerty shows them topping out a $29,700 - though they aren't the end all and be all of the world, they are a data point.  Thought here is that knowing the top end gives me a reference point which I can work backward from.  Any other ideas / advise I'm open to.  

3.  Details : yes, I have only a few photos.  I know I'll need more for the group to be better informed / more helpful.  I plan in getting these over the next few days.  I need advice on what / where photos would be helpful for the group to see / review / pick apart.  I won't be able to get engine / transmission shots until next month sometime.  Certainly any shots of where the body was repaired will be important.  I know it had a tree land on it (exact location / damaged area unknown), and rust repair done in various areas.  Other than "take photos of everywhere" are there area(s) which I should particularly focus on?

4.  Parts in boxes : I am told that the shop has every nut and bolt and piece that came off the car.  There are a lot of dusty boxes around the shop.  I certainly would take a thorough inventory of all the part boxes before making a "solid" offer on the car (and along with that needing to see the engine).  For the moment though, I'm assuming the car is "all there".  Etiquette I've learned (certainly down in the South) is not to doubt / question a persons word, or risk ever doing business with them.  I'm not saying I truly believe the car is 100% there, certainly any project like this will end up with missing pieces.  I will absolutely open and inspect all the parts boxes at some point in the future, that time is just not now.

5.  Wild ass guess on reassembly time : I'm now ace mechanic.  I rely heavily on this board even for the simplest things.  My wild ass guess is 600 - 1000 hours to reassemble.  I could be wrong.     

 

Any help / other help / suggestions / comments are welcome.  And yes, this was long and sprawling, so thanks to everyone who read it through.  I have tried to give details which will hopefully avoid many questions / give some idea of direction.  I have posted photos and some comments above each.  

 

Summary of comment that would be helpful (though all are welcome) :

1. Buying strategy (given particular situation)

2. Value range as it sits (lots of unknowns at this point - but depending on your idea about # 1 - need a stab in the dark)

3. What other details / photos / knowledge is needed to make a solid / real offer

4. Wild guess on reassembly.  Perhaps a range, or for an expert / competent / novice (me).  

 

Thanks!

 

 

  

 

Photos of the car :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The dash has some sort of sewn cover on it - sort of like the one several folks on this board didn't like on the '74 Turkis on BAT

 

 

Yes - this is the wrong steering wheel - he has the original - its cracked - he just put this in to move the car around the shop

 

 

Yes - these are the wrong rims - again just put on the move around the shop

Yes - these are the wrong turn signals - the owner took the originals to convert to 12 volt (I also have a set of flat euro signals, and they are also easy to get)

 

 

 

Deal most likely will also come with a '66 1600 donor car - this car has no VIN, it was cut out before it was sold to owner (and yes the painted car has the correct VIN)

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

          

[jireland2002]

It sounds like you want to restore it.  That's great as there are not many originals left and I love that color.  Finishing an all original "show" car is a lot different that building a nice driver.  The major mechanical stuff is pretty easy it's the little details that are time consuming and difficult.  You first need to evaluate the paint/body to see if it is up to your expectations. No matter what the seller claimed.  In all my years of experience I have NEVER bought a partially disassembled car that was complete. This is especially true when the parts are scattered at different locations and time takes it's toll as well.  So assume you will need to find lots of the little stuff.  My first thought was decide how much you think the finished car is worth and offer 25% of that number.  You can stress to the owner that you will finish the car to a high standard and the fact that you own and are smart of 2002's.  Also is he likely to find another buyer.

note- the old 1600 brake boosters can be rebuilt.

[esty]

i think you just have to start the negotiations by asking the owner what he wants for the car...the roll from there

[BarneyT]

Well you are putting a lot of thought in to this for sure, very desirable car I would bet the owner knows that, at this point he has money in the car to paint and putting back together to date beside the long term ownership...he will more than likely want more than its worth...i would try to back into the number based on finished car well done worth 28-30k.  The car has glass and interior installed are you sure it was all removed in the repainting?  The Heater holes still hanging out of fire wall makes me think the repaint was not all that well done The state of the engine matters a great deal as far as worth...way to many unverifiable items...what really matters in the end is do you feel up to the adventure of finding the missing parts and finishing car....my guess is he will want 14-16k....good luck let us know....Barney 

[dang]

This is how I go about this kind of thing...  First, he has to want to sell.  If you know that for sure, you need to find out how much effort he's willing to put into selling it.  Would he hassle with Craigslist or ebay or BAT?  If he doesn't want to do any of that, then the work is figuring out the value for both him and you.  It has a lot going for it, which I'm guessing is why you want it.  Taking the finished car value and backing out your time and money is one way, with some incentive built in for you.  That may end up at 50% or less depending on the finished value.  If he doesn't want to sell online, his only options are word of mouth, you, or paying to have it finished.  My gut tells me between $3k-5k since it has some risk, which means more time in my book.  If it were complete and running and driving in the same condition?  If it were restored.  Use those data points...

Edited November 22, 2017 by dang

[tahoedon]

Being the original owner for 50 years is the longest I have  heard of, I thought I was doing pretty good at 48 years 8 months.

[Mike Self]

2 hours ago, tahoedon said:

Being the original owner for 50 years is the longest I have  heard of, I thought I was doing pretty good at 48 years 8 months.

You have me by a month.  Bought mine in May 1969...car was assembled in February.  

 

David, be aware that there are a lot of bits 'n pieces on '66 cars that are quite different from later ones--even from '67s.  So it will pay for you to make sure they're still around--like the embossed front hood trim, 10 slat center grille, little plastic "auxiliary switch panel" under the steering column etc.  Since so few 66 cars were sold in the US, those little bits are hard to find.  And the fact it's been converted to 12 volts, while more convenient, does decrease the value a bit because it's not original.  Those are all bargaining chips.  

 

One bit of advice on negotiations:  for a long-time owner who obviously cherishes his car (otherwise he wouldn't have kept it for 50 years and put a lot of time/$$ into the restoration so far), finding a good home is a very important consideration. If you're enthusiastic about finishing off the car so it looks like it did when it was new--and promising to bring it over to the original owner when done--will help a lot.  I've obtained several nice cars by (truthfully) convincing the owner that I was going to continue his stewardship of the car he was selling.

 

mike

[Conserv]

David,

 

I quite agree with Mike S.:  for a 50-year owner, finding a good home is probably paramount in the seller’s eyes. Perhaps convincing him that you have the desire and ability to complete the restoration will be sufficient, but I’d bet he’s looking for the car’s next long-term owner.

 

As Esty says, start by asking him what he wants.  If his initial ask and your initial bid are worlds apart, perhaps you don’t immediately “hit” him with your bid.  Think about it and get back to him after you both have had a chance to...”reflect”.

 

As others above have said, a “complete car” in boxes is never a complete car.  The rear seat has been reupholstered, but not in an original pattern.  Assume the dash cover hides a deteriorated dash. These details should give you some clues regarding the condition of the remainder of the surviving parts!

 

I agree that $30K is a realistic cap on value...currently.

 

My gut?  Buy it to save it from an un-informed buyer, who may not recognize how rare and special a ‘66 1600-2 is, and will alter, part, or modify it.  Most importantly, don’t over-analyze: rational analysis is wasted when it is applied to antique cars! ?

 

Get that parts shell under cover!  So, what I hear you saying is that this original owner of a Bristol ‘66 1600-2 actually found a Bristol ‘66 1600-2 parts car?  How the heck...?

 

There are other ‘66 1600-2’s in the U.S.: some in very original condition.  After you buy these ‘66’s — please buy them, you have just the right profile, Mr. DS21, to be a “caretaker” for a ‘66 1600-2 — visit some of these other ‘66’s before you do anything!  PM me and I’m confident we can put you in touch with the owner of an extremely original ‘66 in the Northeast.

 

I would sleep better at night knowing these two ‘66 1600-2’s were in your hands....?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Conserv

[jgerock]

The longer you agonize, the worse it will eat you up.  When discussing the price, show him pics of your cars as an example of your long term interest in them.  Just ask him what he wants.  An original owner who cares about their vehicles is worth dealing with.

 

I have advanced thru three project cars since I was 15. They are lots of work, but if you have the time and some skills the end results are worthwhile.

[Slavs]

That car reminds me of my 66-67 1600, also in Bristol. I obtained it from the original owner who was a process of assembling it. I actually assembled it after it was completely stripped and repainted. The owner got too sick to drive, and he passed the car on to me. He installed a 2.0 liter motor and 5 speed OD along with a 12V conversion, but I would have left the mechanicals original, if I owned it at the time. I've been using this car as a daily driver in Los Angeles traffic. which is crazy. I've spent the the last two days repairing the drivers side fender, front bumper, and grille because somebody backed up into me while my car was parked. Through a surveillance camera I observed a guy in a new BMW sedan backing up and turning into my car and then driving off. The resolution on the surveillance tape is not good enough to read his plates. An excellent paint-less dent remover was able to bring back my fender to nearly perfect as the paint did not crack. The destroyed front left grill was near mint, but I was able to assemble another one from two spares. I was lucky.

 

As far as assembly time, I was able to install all trim, rubber, glass, bumpers and interior, including headliner in about a week. And, I know these cars really well. If you don't know the car, it will take you months.

 

With cars this old, you're lucky if you have most of the original parts, especially the rare early trim. Many owners and mechanics have have replaced older parts from newer cars. That 1600 dash badge is unique to the 66 cars. The dashboards crack, and people opt to recover them like the pictured dash in your photo. Mobile traditions should have most of the dash pieces and trim for a little less than $2,000, if you want to spend that much on a dash. The steering wheel in your pictures is not original to your car. See my pic for comparison. I don't have the 66 kidney grill, but I prefer the aesthetics on the 67 anyway. Note style and location of door mirror. This is unique to 66-67 cars. Note low silhouette plastic, non-padded instrument dash cover, also unique to 66-7 cars. The one in your picture does not appear to be original. It appears to be a later padded version which has been recovred. The early 66-67 ones never crack as they are solid plastic. The seats should be low back. I don't know what your door panels look like. But, all these things add up.

 

Assembling the engine is no big deal, and most competent mechanics can do it, but it's the machine work which is critical. Many machine shops have a bad habit of taking of too much material when resurfacing the head. BMW cranks up to 1978 were forged and surface hardened. They never need resurfacing, if the motor was not neglected. When machine shops resurface these cranks, they usually don't send them out for surface hardening. And when they do, it is usually done incorrectly. Most owners will never know the difference unless they do the rebuilds themselves. Many machine shops also incorrectly bore the blocks leading to early oil consumption at about 10k miles. Either way, consider yourself fortunate if the motor runs nice and smooth. You can't expect too much from the average engine rebuilders.

 

I never paid more than about $900 for a running 02, but It's been over 20 years since I bought my last car. Current prices for cars and parts are crazy, but nowhere near as crazy as vintage Porsche's. Carefully inspect the rocker panels. Both of the rockers on my car were replaced due to rust. More often than not, the paint shops just cover up the rust with bondo. I would definitely buy that car if you have the funds and if the owner is not asking a crazy price. Take off about $5,000 from the market value, because that is probably what a BMW shop would charge to reassemble everything and install the motor. And, then there may be more Gremlins to chase. You never know how the gearbox will shift until you drive it. Many people have abused the gearboxes. The 2nd gear synchro is usually the first to go.

 

I would value this package between $10,000 - $15,000, depending on the originality of the trim and parts.

 

A Christmas tradition; driving to the local mountains. Lately, though, I've seen some dry snow-less Christmas days in the mountains. I guess it's global warming.

[Conserv]

3 hours ago, Slavs said:

 

 

Beautiful example, Slavs!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

[MikeinNC]

You may inquire as to why the painted car under the cover has the "later style" door strikers as opposed to the shell which has the correct early style door strikers for a 66.   May be a perfectly plausible explanation for that but I have my suspicions     

 

Otherwise the car under the cover looks very nice and would be an awesome car to own    Early 1600s are really cool 

[Mike Self]

4 hours ago, MikeinNC said:

You may inquire as to why the painted car under the cover has the "later style" door strikers as opposed to the shell which has the correct early style door strikers for a 66.   May be a perfectly plausible explanation for that but I have my suspicions     

When 1600s were new, those early style door strikers were just plain dangerous, as they'd unlatch at inopportune moments.  I remember seeing one at an autocross in 1967--under hard cornering a door would suddenly fly open.  After this happened twice, the owner tied a rope between the two inside grab handles after he got in the car for his third run.  Also the tan rubber piece on the door latch crumbles into itty bitty pieces, and AFAIK is NLA.  

 

mike

[73tiiDavidPA]

First off, let me thank everyone for their insightful and thoughtful replies.  This is why I love this board (and that I'd be a helplessly lost mechanic without everyone's expert guidance).  

 

21 hours ago, jireland2002 said:

It sounds like you want to restore it. 

 

Yes, restoring is the idea.

 

21 hours ago, jireland2002 said:

I have NEVER bought a partially disassembled car that was complete

 

Agree.  There will be missing parts and part that can't be used.  I might not be able to convince the shop or owner of such without insult, so I plan to let that be as it may - though I certainly will attempt a full inventory before any firm offer is made.  

 

21 hours ago, jireland2002 said:

how much you think the finished car is worth and offer 25% of that number.

 

Interesting method.  I will probably use several data points / schemes to come up with an offer.  

20 hours ago, esty said:

i think you just have to start the negotiations by asking the owner what he wants for the car...the roll from there

 

Right now the owner does not know.  I gently asked him if he had a number or ballpark in mind, and he said he's thinking about it.  

 

19 hours ago, BarneyT said:

he will more than likely want more than its worth...i would try to back into the number based on finished car well done worth 28-30k.

 

Yes, most people I've either purchased cars or property from think they have a pot of gold hidden somewhere in the value.  This will only be exasperated by the original owner factor.  I agree about backing into a number, and also think that 30k tops is a completed value, probably less.

19 hours ago, BarneyT said:

The car has glass and interior installed are you sure it was all removed in the repainting?

 

I didn't stare / inspect the car too much when taking the original photos. I believe the shop owner did a bare metal respray.  

(love the paint on yours by the way)

 

17 hours ago, dang said:

My gut tells me between $3k-5k since it has some risk, which means more time in my book.

 

Not sure if you are meaning the value of the car as it sits.  Seems too low for me, and If I owned it I would walk away from that offer.  My gut is telling me three times that : $ 9-12 K as it sits.  

 

16 hours ago, tahoedon said:

Being the original owner for 50 years is the longest I have  heard of, I thought I was doing pretty good at 48 years 8 months

 

Wow!  Kudos to you, that's awesome.  I've had me '73tii now for 25 years, seems child-like in comparison.  

 

13 hours ago, mike said:

David, be aware that there are a lot of bits 'n pieces on '66 cars that are quite different from later ones--even from '67s

 

Yes, I will have to study up on the nuances.  This is way beyond plastic versus metal intakes on a tii.  Gratefully Slavs posted a bunch of photos of his car, and I have most all the reference books, and when I originally posted about this 02Anders hooked me up / informed me about the '66 registry he runs.  

 

13 hours ago, mike said:

finding a good home is a very important consideration

 

13 hours ago, mike said:

finishing off the car so it looks like it did when it was new--and promising to bring it over to the original owner when done--will help a lot.

 

Yes, I forgot to mention that I fully plan to do this in my original post.  

 

13 hours ago, Conserv said:

My gut?  Buy it to save it from an un-informed buyer, who may not recognize how rare and special a ‘66 1600-2 is, and will alter, part, or modify it.  Most importantly, don’t over-analyze: rational analysis is wasted when it is applied to antique cars! ?

 

Yes, this is one I would enjoy bringing back to it simple, original form.  I would also serve as a nice bookend to my '73tii (I'd only have a voll cab and turbo to add then, and perhaps a touring). And it would keep me out of trouble for several years while I reassembled.  I also echo the your comments before this quoted one.  

 

13 hours ago, Conserv said:

Get that parts shell under cover!  So, what I hear you saying is that this original owner of a Bristol ‘66 1600-2 actually found a Bristol ‘66 1600-2 parts car?  How the heck...?

 

The shell is under a high canopy roof.  Its in SC, so the humidity in the summer I sure doesn't help, but at least its mostly kept dry and out of most sunlight (lol, because you wouldn't want to fade that patina).  Not sure how he sources another '66, and in Bristol too.  

 

13 hours ago, Conserv said:

PM me and I’m confident we can put you in touch with the owner of an extremely original ‘66 in the Northeast.

 

I just may do that if / when this deal gets closer.  Thanks for the offer.  

 

13 hours ago, Conserv said:

Mr. DS21

 

The goddess is down right now with a hydraulic leak, both figuratively and literally. 

 

13 hours ago, jgerock said:

When discussing the price, show him pics of your cars as an example

 

Good suggestion.  Any final deal will certainly be hashed out face to face.  I'll probably drive my survivor '73tii over which will hopefully show that I try to tend to me cars well, and am a long term caretaker.  

 

11 hours ago, Slavs said:

As far as assembly time, I was able to install all trim, rubber, glass, bumpers and interior, including headliner in about a week. And, I know these cars really well. If you don't know the car, it will take you months.

 

Yes, it will take me months, actually year(s).  My salvation is this board for help on... everything.  I also travel a lot for work, so my garage time is limited to weekends, and many weekends not at all.  I'm guessing the high hundreds of hours to reassemble the car.  At my rate of 8 hours garage time a week (say 400 a year) it will takes literally years.  And getting 8 hours a week I know won't happen.  

 

On the other points of your post.  Sorry to hear you 1600 got backed into, I'm glad it wasn't catastrophic.  I appreciate your pointing out some of the unique bits to a 66 model.  I will have lots of research to do in order to assess what the seller actually has.  Your car looks great, a very nice, pristine example.  The photos will be a great help in assessing this cars completeness and correctness.  Thanks so much for including them.

 

11 hours ago, Slavs said:

Take off about $5,000 from the market value, because that is probably what a BMW shop would charge to reassemble everything and install the motor.

 

I'm not sure where you live / what shop you use, but $5000 seems like way too little for a shop to charge to reassemble.  I was thinking at least double.  

 

11 hours ago, Slavs said:

I would value this package between $10,000 - $15,000, depending on the originality of the trim and parts.

 

I agree that this is a good range.  I was thinking a couple of thousands lower, but of course it depends on the correctness and condition of all those important expensive little bits / parts.  

 

6 hours ago, MikeinNC said:

You may inquire as to why the painted car under the cover has the "later style" door strikers as opposed to the shell which has the correct early style door strikers for a 66. 

 

Thanks.  I will ask certainly, now that I know.  I love the eagle-eyed, informative nature of this board. 

2 hours ago, mike said:

When 1600s were new, those early style door strikers were just plain dangerous, as they'd unlatch at inopportune moments

 

Mike, I love just plain dangerous things.  Hell, if this car wasn't almost smack on my doorstep and up for offer, I'd be sourcing a ripple hooded Citroen 2CV complete with seats that detach for picnics and the structural integrity of a cheap metal tool shed.   

 

Once again, thanks to everyone for chiming in on this post.  I realize it was a bit wordy.  I'll keep everyone posted on the progress, which I anticipate will be slow.  The information gleaned here is invaluable.  Thanks!    

 

  

 

  

 

 

 

 

   

[Dudeland]

15 hours ago, mike said:

You have me by a month.  Bought mine in May 1969...car was assembled in February.  

 

David, be aware that there are a lot of bits 'n pieces on '66 cars that are quite different from later ones--even from '67s.  So it will pay for you to make sure they're still around--like the embossed front hood trim, 10 slat center grille, little plastic "auxiliary switch panel" under the steering column etc.  Since so few 66 cars were sold in the US, those little bits are hard to find.  And the fact it's been converted to 12 volts, while more convenient, does decrease the value a bit because it's not original.  Those are all bargaining chips.  

 

One bit of advice on negotiations:  for a long-time owner who obviously cherishes his car (otherwise he wouldn't have kept it for 50 years and put a lot of time/$$ into the restoration so far), finding a good home is a very important consideration. If you're enthusiastic about finishing off the car so it looks like it did when it was new--and promising to bring it over to the original owner when done--will help a lot.  I've obtained several nice cars by (truthfully) convincing the owner that I was going to continue his stewardship of the car he was selling.

 

mike

+1 on this. Let him know it will be returned to its previous glory.  Be honest with your price. It is a shit ton of work. I have done basket cases before. And the body makes you feel like the hard part is done, you haven’t even started. That is the easy part on the breakdown. Putting it together is unbelievably tedious. Give him what the paint and body is worth plus maybe 4K for the boxes. Tops.  He won’t bite right away, but keep it civil and remind him that you have to make some money. You don’t do it for free... nobody does it for free.