electrical and ignition 123 Ignition Distributor....any Info Or Personal Experience?

[eurotrash]

We need a European contact to buy them for us, and ship them over.. might be worth it..?  Warranty might be tricky..

 

They're probably allowed to sell, hower US people risk to have to pay import duties I think... Inside EU no duties of course!

 

They're probably allowed to sell, hower US people risk to have to pay import duties I think... Inside EU no duties of course!

Edited April 17, 2015 by eurotrash

[Stevenola]

imho worth the extra money to buy over here to have USA support and service if needed.  Ed is a good guy and very helpful.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Stevenola

[downhillwolf]

Jason, with warranty... a friend of friend purchased 123ignition(not tune), and did not work. He wanted to sent it back to replace it and they said that it was not installed corecctly. So no warranty. Not by my seller but by leen apk.
I can ask my vendor how much $ for the one with shipping to USA, tax and other thing is up to you. If you want just give me your state, and zip code...

 

Edited April 17, 2015 by downhillwolf

[Laurent1602]

We need a European contact to buy them for us, and ship them over.. might be worth it..? Warranty might be tricky..

I could do that for you, but what difference would it make? If the package I send you is checked you will have to pay import duties I'm afraid...

[kaptanoglu]

A/C modification for the Tombonetwo curve

 

With the fluctuating weather in Houston (varying between 70 something and sweaty high 80s), I have been turning the AC on and off, and also screwing with the idle way, way too much in order to prevent super high idle on the cool days, or stalling the motor with the AC on hot days.

 

I had been using the Tombonetwo hook on my curve, but it wasn't quite getting it done for me.  I had a lower advance at my target idle (around 800) than above or below there, and I ended up having a bunch of hunting as the feedback loop wasn't quite dialed in, and the higher advance above 800 RPM was causing the idle speed to actually be much higher when the AC was off.

 

I ended up putting a flat spot of 9 deg total advance between 800 and 1100 RPM.  Now with the AC on (around 800), the additional advance below props it up when the switch goes on (if it drops below 800 RPM), but it doesn't hunt around anymore.  Also, the spread between AC on and AC off has tightened up a bit, now closer to 850 and 1100 RPM.

 

Sexy eurotrash graph attached.

 

[dasfrogger]

I've been running a 123 ignition for a bit over a month and have been enjoying it, big improvement over my tired distributor. I've been running the tombonetoo hook curve with good success, but have been having a lot of backfiring thru the intake at 30-45 MPH cruising and issues with idling in gear (I've got an automatic)

 

For reference, here's some screen shots of the 123 program :

Values:

 

Dashboard at Idle:
 

 

Dashboard in gear:

As you can imagine when sitting at idle in gear it was pretty terrible. This snap shot was actually pretty good, it usually sat closer to 400 RPM and 200 on the ignition coil current reading.

 

I bumped the idle speed screw up to bring the high idle to just under 1,000 and it idles much better, however it runs more 'resentfully' between 2500-3500 rpm and likes to backfire thru the intake upon accel and at partial throttle cruising at moderate speed.

 

So, I figured since the TBT hook curve was designed for a more performance oriented machine than mine, I'd start with a baseline from the blue book and tweak from there. Here's what I've got so far based off the values from the blue book:
RPM.....Deg Advance

1000....11-15     1500....17-21     2000....23-27     2500....30-33

2700....-------     3000....37-41     3500....41-45     3800....42-46     4000....------

 

 

1st: What do y'all think of this curve. Seems way different from any of the other values I've seen folks post. Is this crazytownbannanapants or am I on the right track? I have a feeling that these values need to be brought down because vacuum advance will play a factor too.

 

2nd: I have zero idea how the advance/retard curve works. The blue book states "Vacuum advance starts between 4.72 and 5.91 in Hg. (120 and 150 mm HG). Vacuum advance ends between 7.68 and 8.27 in Hg (195 and 210 mm Hg)." How do i translate that information into the 123 software to get a reproduction of a stock dizzy as a 'baseline'?

 

3rd: From there how would you go about tweaking the values? Do y'all have any online resources that were especially helpful for understanding the principles? I am amazed by the potential this technology provides, but hate to limit that potential with my own ignorance to how it works. I'd like to do some homework to better understand how to use this tool.

 

 

Thanks folks!

Edited June 11, 2015 by dasfrogger

[downhillwolf]

Are you sure you did attached vacuum a manifold not carb?

[Stevenola]

Your motor is stock?   44 degrees all in mechanical advance seems like a lot especially when you have the potential to add 10 more via vacuum.   I would try 34 all in.   The poor idle could have been attributed to the 14 to 6 to 14 advance scenario at idle.   I tried this and the motor would hunt up and down as the advance changed and tried to compensate so I ditched it. 

 

Reduce your all in advance and if this doesnt solve your backfiring then look for air leaks.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Stevenola

[zinz]

I agree with Steve.  You have too much mechanical advance all-in.

 

A good way to begin is with a curve that matches the stock dizzy and work from there, using the "rpm stopwatch" feature of the 123.  The rpm stopwatch allows you to use the same stretch of clear road as a dynamometer, in a sense.  (it's why a dyno is also called a "rolling road")  Using the stopwatch feature allows you to make adjustments and immediately know if you have made more power, or not.  Read in the instructions how to utilize the stopwatch feature.  It's best way to tweak, for power, certain areas of your curve.

 

The other point you need to remember, is that after a stock distributer is installed at TDC, it is then manually advanced to the ball at 1400rpm for final ignition timing by rotating the distributer. That manual rotation of the distributer to line up the ball in the window at the desired rpm is amount of "static advance" you may have seen us discuss earlier in this thread.  When building your 123 curves, you need to consider the value of the static advance when adding up the amount of total advance a stock distributer actually delivers.  To that point, for my sidedrafted, 292 cam'd car, I use a curve with slightly more advance than a Tii curve, and add about 9 degrees of static. I also have 10 degrees of vacuum, as well.  This is a LOT of advance, but I have flat tops and my engine behaves well with this set up.

 

Here is my basic curve, but my vacuum advance now has 10 degrees almost to 0 inches of Hg.

 

Ed

 

[arminyack]

I have been basing mine off the stock 1602 curve, and playing with it...but the curve found in the factory manual isn't jiving specifications also found in the factory manual, and I cant figure out why..

First, Here is the curve:

 

 

 

Now here is the spec....I've placed a red box around the pertinent info to the curve above:

 

 

 

 

Those advance numbers in the spec at various RPM's don't match the curve at all, even with the 3° of static as stated in the spec....the spec is showing much more advance. I Know the curve is in camshaft degrees, so everything needs to be doubled.

 

On the spec, it show in one place the maximum centrifugal advance as 18° camshaft degrees....so 36° at the crank....which doesn't match the spec given at the various RPM's...the measured value is as high as 46° at 3800 RPM. It cant be added as vacuum advance, as the spec states specifically that the vacuum hose is removed

 

It also list max vacuum advance as 50° @ camshaft? Wth?

 

As far as vacuum advance, factory manual gives this:

 

[kaptanoglu]

das -

 

Comments below:

 

1st: What do y'all think of this curve. Seems way different from any of the other values I've seen folks post. Is this crazytownbannanapants or am I on the right track? I have a feeling that these values need to be brought down because vacuum advance will play a factor too.

 

+1 on the comments that >40 deg of advance looks like a lot.  36 deg crank is as much as I am comfortable putting in based on the digging I did.  That being said, my motor is not very much like yours.  If it was my car, I would dial that way back.

 

Also, for my own sanity, I set the static advance (how much the 123 is turned in the motor) to 0 deg.  The easiest way to do this is to set a wide flat spot at ~10 deg in the 123 (say 0 - 2,000 RPM) and adjust the 123 until an adjustable timing light lines up the marks at 10 degrees WITH THE VACUUM HOSE OFF.

 

2nd: I have zero idea how the advance/retard curve works. The blue book states "Vacuum advance starts between 4.72 and 5.91 in Hg. (120 and 150 mm HG). Vacuum advance ends between 7.68 and 8.27 in Hg (195 and 210 mm Hg)." How do i translate that information into the 123 software to get a reproduction of a stock dizzy as a 'baseline'?

 

You can see previous comments in this thread on this issue.  IIRC, most of our cars did not have vacuum advance or retard on our dizzy.  Mine, a 74 tii had vacuum retard for emissions reasons.  The easiest way to translate it is to have someone look at the screen while you drive and see about where the vacuum is under varying driving conditions (x at idle, y when cruising on the freeway, z when WOT).

 

Vacuum is typically highest when chopping the throttle at high RPM and zero when at WOT.  I suspect that your issues when cruising at 35 are due to the additional advance in the high vacuum condition when you are driving like that.  If it was my car (which it isn't), I would zero out the vacuum advance, and get the primary curve right first.

 

3rd: From there how would you go about tweaking the values? Do y'all have any online resources that were especially helpful for understanding the principles? I am amazed by the potential this technology provides, but hate to limit that potential with my own ignorance to how it works. I'd like to do some homework to better understand how to use this tool.

 

I think that your approach is right, but the inputs you are using may be off.  I would:

• Make sure I know how much static advance there is (and, if it's me, set it to zero)
• Build a stock curve 
  • Verify the correct stock curve for your model.  I think the curve from the graph is closer to right than the table from the manual (and I would max at 36 deg total).  I also expect that there should be some advance at idle (but YMMV)
  • Start with no vacuum adv/ret (unless your car had it to begin with, and try to replicate it)
• Tinker in SMALL increments from there to get the WOT curve right
• THEN play with vacuum advance - it will make the car better/friskier/more efficient when cruising, but if you are having backfiring issues, you have too much

Two easiest mistakes to make (or, at least, I made them)

1. Forget to take off the vacuum hose when using the timing light
2. Not setting the static timing to zero (or some other known number)

Let us know how it goes.

 

J

[jimk]

 Of course, y'all know that a higher compression (than stock) engine requires less advance.

And a fuel injected engine also requires less advance.

[kaptanoglu]

Of course, y'all know that a higher compression (than stock) engine requires less advance.

And a fuel injected engine also requires less advance.

I have both of those things and don't disagree. OP was looking for feedback, however, and it's hard too melt your motor with too little advance.

I suspect that you need a bit more up in Denver.

J

[williamggruff]

In other news, with the dollar so strong against the Euro, I was able to purchase a 123Tune today for $380 shipped.  Looking forward to catching up with the in crowd in early July.

[zinz]

$380, shipped??? wow... lucky dog.  I guess I should get another one for any "future projects"

 

Congrats...you will love it.  

 

Ed