“Restored” Tii with a ‘long’ brake pedal

[eurotrash]

So I am undoing a ton of bad work on a ‘72. it came to me blowing smoke on warm up, 1” of throttle travel, and brakes that don’t hit until the pedal is near the floor, wipers that park in the middle of the windshield and several other issues, hidden and not so hidden. 
problems resolved thus far: 
1. horribly adjusted WUR

2. block mounted throttle linkage pivot deleted and longer rod ran straight to the injection pump. 

3. Cold start wiring reversed on the TTS and CSV.  Bad CS relay. 
4. Center brake bleeder snapped off on BOTH sides. 
5, reused wheel front bearing and seals (seal frames bent to L, two colors of grease in the hub)  

6. 195/70/14 tires on e30 weaves with flat (not hub centric)0 10mm spacers and stock lugs so they don’t rub the strut. 
7. Dead alternator and cooked plug. 
8. loose front wheel bearing castle nuts and bad bearings. 
 

With more to come I am sure, but all of the above have been addressed and now I am on to the brake issue. 

The brake pedal doesn’t hit until past halfway through its travel. 

I have adjusted the rear brakes and bled the crap out the system, no luck. 
Took it to a service center and had them bleed it with their higher tech equipment and they said there was no air in the system. 
 

I am left with the possibility that the “restorer” installed a standard 2002 brake master cylinder with the smaller bore, but the owner doesn’t believe that this could possibly have happened nor does he believe it could cause the issue. Also, TII MCs are hens teeth these days. 
I know from experience, with my one Volvo BBK and rear disc conversion, that a tii MC resolved my long brake pedal issue. So I am here to get opinion from the hive mind that I am in the right path. 
I suppose that the residual pressure valve could be bad, but you can’t even pump the pedal up to get better feel. I am going to get numbers off the MC today to try and confirm. 
 

Am I crazy, or is this a great realization and quite.possibly the cause? 
 

 

 

[dlacey]

To eliminate rear brake adjustment as a factor, pull the hand/Ebrake on till the brakes just drag... now if the pedal travel has improved then the issue is the rear brake adjustment and residual pressure valve.... if it makes no difference then...dunno... check if front brake calipers are fitted right way up??

[eurotrash]

Bleeders face up. So the calipers are indeed mounted properly. 

[jgerock]

Good tii brake booster?
Good booster check valve and hose?
Incorrectly assembled M/C actuator rod at pedal?
 

BTW- thanks for undoing those bad things.👍

[Mike Self]

Just possibly a black swan, but check the diameter of the rear brake drums.  I couldn't get my rear brakes to adjust properly--nor have the parking brake hold at all--then I checked my rear drum diameter and discovered they were 233 mm--max diameter is 231.  New drums/shoes took care of the problem.  

 

Also...if it turns out that you do in fact have the wrong M/C, and can come up with a tii unit with rust pits in the bore, and outfit in Virginia called White Post Restorations can bore and sleeve your MC to standard size and fit with new innards...

 

And I'm sure you know how to reposition the wiper arms/blades so they park at the bottom of the windshield; if not PM me and I'll be glad to elucidate.

 

mike

[Son of Marty]

Brake pedal 1/2 way to the floor might well be a failure of one of the 2 M/C circuit. 

[eurotrash]

On 2/5/2024 at 10:10 AM, jgerock said:

Good tii brake booster?
Good booster check valve and hose?
Incorrectly assembled M/C actuator rod at pedal?
 

BTW- thanks for undoing those bad things.👍

Thanks Jim.
 

1. assumed good. that’s bad, I know. But if that was the issue, wouldn’t the brakes be very hard to actuate when they do hit?  Like, you would have to stand on the pedal to get any grip, right? 

2. assumed good. That’s bad, I know. but it is all new parts. 
3. what are the symptoms of such a thing?  The pedals are parallel, and the pivot arm sits nicely on the brake light switch, so that all appears proper. I’ll investigate, but it all looks fine. 

[TobyB]

I'm with SoM- are you sure both circuits are building pressure?

 

Quote

not hub centric

 

neither are 2002's, so that's fine.  

 

Having put Volvo and 528 calipers on a number of cars now, the 'wrong'

master won't give you the symptoms you're getting.

I had no trouble with long pedals with the stock master, and in fact never got 

around to changing the master on most of the cars that got caliper- swapped.

It just wasn't enough to matter.

 

t

 

[eurotrash]

23 hours ago, TobyB said:

I'm with SoM- are you sure both circuits are building pressure?

 

 

neither are 2002's, so that's fine.  

 

Having put Volvo and 528 calipers on a number of cars now, the 'wrong'

master won't give you the symptoms you're getting.

I had no trouble with long pedals with the stock master, and in fact never got 

around to changing the master on most of the cars that got caliper- swapped.

It just wasn't enough to matter.

 

t

 

 

This car came to me almost 3 months ago and I got consumed with fuel delivery, cold start and finding a local alternator rebuilder, which never happened.. They are all gone. Turns out an original Bosch I had in my garage tested good so I installed that while we figure out what to do for a fresh unit.

 

 I’m now left with the brake problem and I don’t really remember what I went through in the testing procedures previously. 

I am waiting on wheel bearing seals for the front to come in today, then I will reinstall the hubs and the sway bar.  (The wheel bearings were bad because the castle nut left waaaay too loose so the alignment shop couldn’t do anything for the car when I got new tires put on it to eliminate the 195/70r14  balloons that his builder used. (The more I touch this car the less I want to touch this car) 

 

Anyway, once it’s back together, and with the car running, I will pull the parking brake and see if I still have the same symptoms at the pedal.  Maybe that will isolate a bad cup seal in the MC. 

[jgerock]

On 2/6/2024 at 1:38 PM, eurotrash said:

Thanks Jim.
 

1. assumed good. that’s bad, I know. But if that was the issue, wouldn’t the brakes be very hard to actuate when they do hit?  Like, you would have to stand on the pedal to get any grip, right? 

2. assumed good. That’s bad, I know. but it is all new parts. 
3. what are the symptoms of such a thing?  The pedals are parallel, and the pivot arm sits nicely on the brake light switch, so that all appears proper. I’ll investigate, but it all looks fine. 

Any difference in brake pedal feel when you apply brakes, then start the car?

[eurotrash]

Appears it could be a vacuum leak or bad booster, but the fact that the travel is so drastic before there is any resistance points to a failed circuit. And I guess that the extended travel is more vacuum than 
The system expects to see and thus causing the drastic fluctuations in RPM as the fueling leans and richens. 

Update: the hose and check valve are good. I also noticed that if I pump the pedal rapidly while it’s running, the RPMs increase by 2-300 and stay there until I stop. That is deemed normal. 
 

See videos. 

 

Slight difference when off, the pedal firms up higher, but still at half or more of the travel.

No difference when the parking brake is applied whether running or not.. It’s a spongy long pedal until the back half of the stroke and firms up about an inch off the floor when running. 

Rpm drop when pressing hard and the rpm’s drastically rebound (above idle speed) when I release the brakes quickly. 
 

.. the more I touch this car the less I want to touch this car. 😅

 

 

Edited February 9 by eurotrash

[Hans]

In what order did you bleed caliper screws? Did you have the whole system apart?

[Hans]

What is that hose to right of booster sticker?

[TobyB]

Quote

the more I touch this car the less I want to touch this car.

pm me your address and it can disappear, no questions asked...

 

t

 

[jgerock]

13 hours ago, Hans said:

What is that hose to right of booster sticker?

Looks to be the fuel vapor recovery line from the gas tank (US only emissions).