Timing, TDC, and other newbie questions

[RainMoore]

Hi all,

Trying to get my 74' Automatic 2002 running. I've posted on here several times already, but if you haven't been "following along" here's where I'm at:

 

Replaced (and set) points and condenser as well as most of the ignition system wiring to schematic specs

Replaced fuel lines

Cleaned and restored fuse box and contacts therein

Replaced battery leads and cleaned all grounds (a few were really corroded)

 

I'm now getting spark and a solid 12V across the coil, which I wasn't before, and getting solid fuel flow with no leaks or air in the line.

Still can't get it to fire. I've attached a video of what its currently doing. What I've done so far has definitely improved the electrical. When I started out the starter sounded like it was on its last leg, now it sounds like it really wants to go!

 

I'm still super new to all this, learning along the way. So I'm looking for help on next steps.

I'm thinking at this point the timing must be off. I have loosened the distributor to get to the condenser, and while I made note of pretty precisely where it was before I began, I'm sure its possible I didn't get that exactly right. That being said I've tried it at several different angles in a maybe 15 degree range and little has changed.

I did remove and cap the vacuum from the carb and distributor, which seems to have helped a bit, as it really sounds like its trying to fire.

 

So is this a timing issue? If so, how would I reset everything to factory spec and basically start over?

If I need to set it to TDC or an advance of some type, what would you all recommend and how do I go about doing that? It looks like I would need to remove the radiator and fan first, but if there's an easier way I'd love some advice. I've read recommendations to set it at a 20-30 advance, instead of TDC, but I've never done this before so I may be mistaken.

 

Running a Weber 32/36 DGV with a manual choke which is disconnected (there doesn't seem to have ever been one installed...)

 

Any help is appreciated, Thanks!

Edited April 19, 2021 by RainMoore

[Son of Marty]

Try pumping the gas pedal 2 or 3 times before cranking if your not already.

[esty]

what do your points look like...are you getting 12v at the coil

 

[RainMoore]

11 minutes ago, Son of Marty said:

Try pumping the gas pedal 2 or 3 times before cranking if your not already.

 

 I do that, as well as tried while cranking. Doesn’t seem to have much effect...

 

9 minutes ago, esty said:

what do your points look like...are you getting 12v at the coil

 

 

points are new, old ones were badly pitted.

yes I’m getting a solid 12V now that I’ve rewired the ignition system.

[esty]

try priming the carb with a bit of gas or a squirt of starter fluid

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by esty

[Son of Marty]

Like Esty, said try about a teaspoon of gas down the carb throat.

[Mark92131]

I am assuming you have your point gap set correctly, (.016 inch feeler gauge in the gap when the point block is on one of the lobes of the distributor shaft).  If you have a dwell meter, you can hook it up to the coil, crank it over and adjust the point gap to 58-61 degrees.

 

On to the timing.  Pull the valve cover, crank the engine over by hand until the line on front your cam is lined up with our oil spray bar and both valves on cylinder #1 are closed.  This should be TDC on the compression stroke.  You also can verify TDC on your flywheel and your front pulley. Next, pop the distributor cap, the rotor should be point at the terminal connected to the spark plug wire for cylinder #1 and the firing order should be 1, 3 4, 2 in a clockwise direction.  Some distributors have a line on the rim of the distributor body under the cap that lines up with the rotor at the #1 position to help you time it statically.  If, and when you get it fired, use the idle speed screw to set the RPM at 2800 and use a timing light to locate the ball in the viewing port (25 degrees BTDC) by loosening the distributor and slowly turn it back and forth until the ball appears in the viewing port at 2800 RPM.

 

Have fun,

 

Mark92131

 

 

[dlacey]

You can set timing as people have discussed above.... but a quick-n-dirty approach to get it running would be to loosen the dizzy enough so you can twist it (not so loose that it will fall out), get someone to crank the car over and then using a gloved hand just twist the dizzy 45 degrees either way from where it is until it fires...one it fires then twist more gently to maximise revs and then retard (clockwise) a little ..maybe 5degrees at the dizzy... thats rough enough so you can start using a timing light or tuning by ear on the road. If it misfires check plug leads follow rotor direction and try +/- 90 degree.

[RainMoore]

 

1 hour ago, Mark92131 said:

use a timing light to locate the ball in the viewing port (25 degrees BTDC) by loosening the distributor and slowly turn it back and forth until the ball appears in the viewing port at 2800 RPM.

 

Ok, so I would set everything at TDC (basically manual specs), then adjust it to 25 degrees by turning the distributor, or would I adjust something on the light itself? I'm ordering a timing light now, so I don't have any experience with them yet.

I thought the three notches on the flywheel represented TDC and some degrees of advance. Why wouldn't I set the advance there?

 

Also, you're saying that its easier to remove the valve cover than to turn to TDC with the bolt on the front? If I removed the cover would I need to replace the gasket? Again, this would be a first for me.

 

Thanks!

[RainMoore]

3 minutes ago, dlacey said:

You can set timing as people have discussed above.... but a quick-n-dirty approach to get it running would be to loosen the dizzy enough so you can twist it (not so loose that it will fall out), get someone to crank the car over and then using a gloved hand just twist the dizzy 45 degrees either way from where it is until it fires...one it fires then twist more gently to maximise revs and then retard (clockwise) a little ..maybe 5degrees at the dizzy... thats rough enough so you can start using a timing light or tuning by ear on the road. If it misfires check plug leads follow rotor direction and try +/- 90 degree.

 

I thought of doing this but worried I could damage something and decided against it. Is there any risk of doing harm in this method?

[RainMoore]

1 hour ago, Mark92131 said:

use the idle speed screw to set the RPM at 2800

 

Also, it doesn't have a tach readout. Theres a clock where that would normally be.

[dlacey]

19 minutes ago, RainMoore said:

Is there any risk of doing harm in this method?

No risk to the car..small risk for your hand of electric shock (hence glove)

['76mintgrün'02]

23 minutes ago, RainMoore said:

I'm ordering a timing light now

 

If you're ordering an Innova 5568 timing light, it will have a built in tachometer.

 

The variable advance feature will teach you a lot.  It's worth the extra cost, when compared to a basic timing light.

 

The 5568 also has a volt meter and a dwell meter.

 

It's my favorite.

 

I recommend it quite often, because it is so empowering.

 

$110 might sound like a lot of money, but it is less than an hour of shop rate, to pay someone to use their timing light.

 

Summit Racing sells them for $110 with free delivery.

[Hans]

40 minutes ago, RainMoore said:

 

 

Ok, so I would set everything at TDC (basically manual specs), then adjust it to 25 degrees by turning the distributor, or would I adjust something on the light itself? I'm ordering a timing light now, so I don't have any experience with them yet.

I thought the three notches on the flywheel represented TDC and some degrees of advance. Why wouldn't I set the advance there?

 

Also, you're saying that its easier to remove the valve cover than to turn to TDC with the bolt on the front? If I removed the cover would I need to replace the gasket? Again, this would be a first for me.

 

Thanks!

The engine passes TDC twice on a complete firing cycle. You want Tdc for #1 when it actually fires, so both valves are closed. Get the engine running, and then use the timing light to set advance using the ball on the flywheel by turning the distributor , not while stationary. 

[TobyB]

Several additional suggestions-

 

pull a plug, ground it, and then watch while cranking.  Just to make sure there's spark there.

It's quite possible to get spark at the coil, but not out of the distributor.

(I've found that I've forgotten the rotor more than once, that way)

 

As to timing, set the engine to TDC #1, then BACK IT UP halfway to the ball bearing

(or first mark on the front pulley).  Then, with the plug out and grounded,

rotate the dizzy the opposite direction (against the arrow) until you get a spark.

Do it several times, and then try your darndest to set it where the spark happens.

If you're a little before the spark (timed later) that's better than early, from a starting perspective.

 

Then yes to a small squirt of fuel down the carb.  It doesn't mind.  If it catches then dies, you have

a fuel delivery problem- the idle- up screw can be your friend, as it won't idle well at all until you

get the timing dialled in.

 

You're close.

 

t