Help Getting this thing Running Plz

[RainMoore]

Hey all,

    I've got a '74 2002 Automatic that was left outdoors for a couple years that I've begun bringing back to life. I have yet to get the engine to turn over...

I'm super new to any auto work beyond an oil change and basic maintenance on newer vehicles, so I'm learning each piece as I go along. Appreciate your patience in me fumbling through explaining all this.

 

So here's where I'm at:

I've isolated an electrical issue to somewhere between the ignition coil and the plugs. Power is reaching the ignition coil, but It's getting no spark. I pulled out the coil and tested it with a multimeter. It's reading 0.5 Ohm and 9 Ohm, which from what I've read is up to snuff--It's the OG blue Bosch btw.

I don't know how to test the distributor beyond checking that it's clean and the arm rotates properly. It appears to be a newer distributor from the photos I've seen of original gear.

I've replaced the battery, repaired/replaced any wires damaged by critters that made it their home over the past couple years, replaced any fuses that looked a little gnarly, cleaned all all electrical connection points.

Word is when it was last being driven it ran like a champ.

 

My best educated guess is to next replace the condenser and points, in that order, but is there a better way to test? or any ideas on what else could be going wrong?

 

Thanks for taking the time to read and appreciate any advice you all have!

[Dudeland]

Open the dizzy, rotate the engine until the points are closed. Turn on the key and with an insulated screwdriver toggle the points back and forth, you should see sparks between the points.  

 

You can put a multimeter across the points to see if they are closing.  Probably they need to be cleaned. 

 

Pertonix makes a kit to replace the points,  set and forget.  i have run them in all my cars and they take the guesswork out of points. Keep your original points in the car just in case the pertronix fails, but I have never had one go. There are other off brand ones ( spitfire I think), some people swear by them, but I have no first hand experience. 

 

Send pictures of the wire going to the coil and the coil itself.  Some later cars have a resistor wire that drops the voltage.  That can create a weak spark if used with the wrong coil. My 75 had one. 

[RainMoore]

Here are pics of the coil and distributor. I don’t think there’s a limiter anywhere.

the distributor is definitely pretty nasty. What’s the best way to go about cleaning that out and cleaning the points?

[Mike Self]

From your picture, that dizzy's innards could stand some cleaning, and perhaps treat it to a shiny new set of points, properly gapped.  If the timing was set properly before it went into hibernation, chances are pretty good you shouldn't have to mess with that if you dont' remove the dizzy while cleaning it and replacing the points.  Just set the gap correctly when you install the new points.  A new condenser wouldn't hurt either.   

 

And... check the underside of the dizzy cap.  There should be a spring-loaded carbon button in the center; push it in gently and it should pop back out.  If it's missing or stuck, no spark.  Also the brass contacts for the four plug wires should be nice and shiny, as should the end of the rotor.  Green corrosion there will weaken (or even kill) the spark.

 

mike

[2002iii]

4 hours ago, RainMoore said:

Here are pics of the coil and distributor. I don’t think there’s a limiter anywhere.

the distributor is definitely pretty nasty. What’s the best way to go about cleaning that out and cleaning the points?

I see 2 wires with crimp connectors on them, a blue one behind the coil in the first picture and a pink one coming from behind the distributor, I'm assuming it's the points signal wire to the negative post if the coil. I would atleast check the crimp connectors and probably replace them and the wires so they're the correct color.

 

The wire from the distributor should be connected to the negative side of the coil labeled 1, along with another black wire going to the tachometer.

 

The positive coil side is labeled 15 and should have a black/red wire from the starter and originally a clear resistor wire (looks like clear speaker wire that's usually yellowed from age)from the fuse box. Earlier cars had a ceramic ballast resistor.

 

If you look in the articles section you can find a color wiring diagram.

 

Too clean the points carefully pry them open and put a nail file or points file in between them and file till shiny and flat.

 

To clean the inside of the distributor I would suggest carb cleaner and and a toothbrush to clean the dust and dirt and then wipe or preferably blow the debris out.

 

To set the points gap an old trick was to stick the cover of a cardboard matchbook in between the points, its just about the right thickness .016".

[ScottA]

I'm visiting friends in Santa Fe this week - would like to check-out your car and chat a bit if it's convenient.

I'll send a pm shortly

['76mintgrün'02]

You have the early style distributor that has tiny springs inside.  They're hidden down under the points plate, along with the weights that swing out and rotate the center post, to give the centrifugal advance as the rpms increase.  The springs rub against lobes on the underside of the center post as they get stretched and over time, they get flat spots worn on that side, which weakens them.  Once they get weak and the distributor gets gunked up inside, they don't always return the advance to zero.  There's also a slippery pad that sits under the weights and those often fail/come apart, making it more likely that things get hung up.

 

If you really want to clean it out, I'd suggest taking it out and removing the points plate and center post to access the weights and springs.  The dirt you can see now isn't doing any harm.  Washing it down inside might make things worse.  If you grab the rotor and give it a twist, it should turn freely for 10-15 degrees and then snap back to the same position, thanks to those little springs. 

 

It would be a good idea to remove the rotor and dig out the little felt plug in the center of the shaft and then put a few drips of oil down inside, so the center post can move freely on the shaft.  Also wipe the old grease off of the center post cam and apply some fresh stuff behind the points rubbing block.  

 

If you plan on doing your own maintenance, I highly recommend the Innova 5568 timing light.  It has a built in dwell meter for setting the points (accurately), as well as a tachometer, volt meter and variable advance feature.  The variable advance is like having a distributor machine in the palm of your hand.  It will tell you if the advance weights are sticking and allow you to set the timing to optimize the curve that the distributor is putting out.  It is a very nice tool, for around $100 online.

Tom

[jgerock]

Check the spade connector from the harness to the distributor (condenser).  I’ve seen this wire break and cause intermittent problems.  Odd it was another automatic 2002.

[RainMoore]

On 3/25/2021 at 1:23 AM, 2002iii said:

I see 2 wires with crimp connectors on them, a blue one behind the coil in the first picture and a pink one coming from behind the distributor, I'm assuming it's the points signal wire to the negative post if the coil. I would atleast check the crimp connectors and probably replace them and the wires so they're the correct color.

 

The wire from the distributor should be connected to the negative side of the coil labeled 1, along with another black wire going to the tachometer.

 

The positive coil side is labeled 15 and should have a black/red wire from the starter and originally a clear resistor wire (looks like clear speaker wire that's usually yellowed from age)from the fuse box. Earlier cars had a ceramic ballast resistor.

 

If you look in the articles section you can find a color wiring diagram.

 

Too clean the points carefully pry them open and put a nail file or points file in between them and file till shiny and flat.

 

To clean the inside of the distributor I would suggest carb cleaner and and a toothbrush to clean the dust and dirt and then wipe or preferably blow the debris out.

 

To set the points gap an old trick was to stick the cover of a cardboard matchbook in between the points, its just about the right thickness .016".

This was super helpful, thanks!

as an update I replaced some worn out/miscolored wires, but I’m super confused about some of the wiring.

Here are some pics:

pic 1–

replaced the positive lead with a red wire (which I’m assuming goes to the ignition switch)

I also replaced the black wire from the negative terminal (which from what you say leads to the tachometer)

both had been at some point crimped to the OG wires on the far side of the engine bay so I replaced them at that same point.

I also replaced the wire to the points (which I did blue to keep myself from getting confused. Super new to this) and replaced the quick connect to the points, which was all really worn out.

there was a small black wire which was connected to the same quick connect to the points, is that normal? I don’t see it in the schematic...It leads to the far side of the engine bay, but I lose track of it in the massive wire wraps there. I kept it connected.

 

pic 2— there was a second black wire connected to the positive terminal of the coil which led across the engine bay, under the frame (zip tied to what I believe is the fuel line), which came out in the trunk...unattached to anything.

Wth is that? Granted I’ve found a lot of weird/lazy stuff that’s been done to this car. But what could that have been?

 

pic 3– some mouse-chewed wires under the relay (?) on the right side which I patched up best I could. I can’t figure out from the schematic what this is.

 

 

aside from all this I still can’t get it to start. The points were fairly pitted, so I filed them. Found a mechanic receipt in the glove which says the points and condenser were replaced in 2013. Probably worth the $20 to just replace them again, right?

like I said, there’s a lot of pretty terrible work that’s been done to this car. You should see the stereo wiring. Also someone at some point literally screwed a speaker into the body in one of the foot wells.

I’m a novice at best, so I’m no one to talk, but I’m wondering what could be going wrong or what I’m going to find as I keep troubleshooting.

I think one of the wires I replaced was a lamp cord...

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

[2002iii]

No problem I like to help.

 

Pic 1: I would Try disconnecting both of the black wires to the coil, since we don't need them to start the engine. Make sure the red power wire has 12v with the key on and in the crank position. Then make sure that the points are opening and closing when you crank the engine sending a ground signal to the coil. Once you get it running you can figure out where the other wires go to make the tachometer work and everything else.

 

Pic 2: I can only guess that wire was for an electric fuel pump and very dangerous running a power wire from the coil positive zip tied to a fuel line, I would remove it.

 

Pic 3: The large silver box with yellow stripe is your external alternator voltage regulator. The smaller silver boxes are relays for the horn, low beams and something else I can't remember. 

 

It does seem like someone or maybe multiple someone's have hacked up the wiring. The older the car the more and weirder the hack repairs get lol.

 

I would definitely spend $20 and replace the points and condenser, I also keep a spare of each in the glove box.

 

If you don't already have one get a decent multimeter and make sure you know how to use it properly. Your probably going to want to thoroughly go through the electrical system, braking system and suspension system to make sure the car is safe/roadworthy.

[Solarphil]

I’m in the SF area and have an extra distributor and a meter, if you need help with the troubleshoot let me know.  I’d be glad to help

[TobyB]

To see if you have spark:

 

rotate the engine so that the points are closed.

 

Attach a spark plug to the coil output itself, and ground it well.

(just use a spark plug wire)

 

Open the points with an INSULATED screwdriver (the coil kicks back at a significant voltage)

and see if there's a spark on points opening.

 

If it's nice and blue and goes >zap< you're good to move on.

If it's anemic and yellow, meter across the coil and make sure you have

11.6 v or something like that, and then change the condenser.

One of the best reason to NOT run points any more is that getting

a decent condenser is getting pretty hard...  and getting one of anything

close to the right value for the coil is downright difficult.

 

The black wire on the negative side of the coil is for the tach, and

DO disconnect it for testing- the thing's not all that well insulated,

and tachs have been known to fail.

 

hth,

t

floating ground

[ray_]

While it's not related to your starting issue, take a good hard look at the voltage regulator harness and plugs. It's just a 3 wire harness which runs directly from the VR to the alternator. 

 

I can see that some... creativity has occurred in that area.

 

My not checking that harness closely cost me an expensive alternator. Twice.

 

And a pair of headlamp bulbs..

 

GL!