engine and drivetrain My Tii Engine Project. Found An Interesting Part.

[PaulTWinterton]

19 hours ago, saaron said:

Jeff didn't make mine pretty.  Now I feel neglected.  Seriously- holy cow, Paul.  What do you charge for a rebuild...impresssive.

 

About the distributor:  the one in the pictures has only been cleaned up and not sent to Advanced for rebuild.  From all the replies it appears to be incorrect for this engine and likely will not be used.

 

I did, although, send my 73tii 008 distributor to Jeff and it came back looking like new inside and out.  Not overly polished either.  I have since dropped it into my tii and there is a noticeably smoother idle and better acceleration.   I'm curious to see if my MPG increases.

 

Thanks for the kind words.  My next build is my 73 engine, but first I have to decide what to do with this engine.  I'm torn between putting it into my car while I rebuild that engine, keeping it as an art piece, or selling it for my out-of-pocket costs.  I'm not rich so hanging on to it forever is not really an option, and if I put it into my car it becomes a "used rebuild".  I think I'm leaning toward selling it but I would miss the final step of the rebuild...starting it up.  That's a big part of why we do these things.  Decisions, decisions.

['76mintgrün'02]

2 hours ago, Einspritz said:

In those pre-Red Bull / 5 Hour Energy days, I used to grab the insulators for an afternoon "pick me up", now it's just another Coke.

 

That is pretty hardcore Ted!

Reminds me of this photo of Tim Burton 

 

Here are a few of photos of the wire retainers I mentioned above.  My car has the coil mounted forward, so I pass that wire through the clips as well... hence, larger clips.  I used size 12 up front and 16 in the back (denoting 1/16ths of an inch).  One solution might be to rob the rubber off of these clips and trim it to fit the stock ones.  (not OE tho)

In the last photo you can see a kink in one of the wires, from when they were installed in the original clip.  It did not cut into the sheath, but it did not do it any favors.  It probably has something to do with cramming 8mm wires into that clip.  That is the number two wire, which they should make a little longer, imho. (I have two sets of their wires and used two of number one, the second time around).

 

[jgerock]

Maybe I'm wrong about the insulators for the clamps.  I'm sure I've seen those before - possibly on a spare distributor I have in the garage.

Here is an original 72tii.  Note the rubber pieces.

 

[jgerock]

I must apologize.  I was thinking this engine was from a 73 - not a 74.  I went back to the beginning and now see the intake manifold ports that help identify the 74tii engine.

 

Your distributor should have the vacuum retard diaphragm along with the valve on the air cleaner.

 

[PaulTWinterton]

7 minutes ago, jgerock said:

Note the rubber pieces.

 

 

Thanks Jim,  those pictures are great reference.  I especially like the simple rubber sleeve on the #1/2 clamp. Similar fashion to the rubber  sleeves on the fuel, clutch and brake lines under the car.  I'll do the same on both guides.

 

 

[Einspritz]

Now I recall, the sleeves are wiring harness PVC or Vinyl and that is what keeps the chafing at bay.

 

I am ordering various sizes for my wiring harness build in the next week or so, and would be happy to give you some if you  remind me in the future.

 

Since I went to the J&S high energy system 20+ years ago I use different wire, a custom square Aluminum channel for the wires and VW metal spark plug connectors to guard against heat on the Turbo, and the header on the faux Tii.

 

If you don't like that, there was a cylindrical loom for 4 cyl engines a la E30 M20-M30, but can be spendy if you can find them. It is a Bosch Part.

Ted

['76mintgrün'02]

4 minutes ago, Einspritz said:

there was a cylindrical loom for 4 cyl engines a la E30 M20-M30, but can be spendy if you can find them. It is a Bosch Part.

Ted

 

Kingsborne (mentioned above) will make wire a set in a plastic loom for you, if you ask.

It won't have a Bosch mark on it though.

[PaulTWinterton]

I thought long and hard and decided to stick with the simple guides.  I've handcrafted a variety of spring steel guides and I'm even having a couple yellow cad plated for fun.  I'll post pictures when I'm done.  Now I just have to find the correct distributor for the engine.

[pilotnbr1]

21 hours ago, JAS said:

Great work Paul! I am also impressed that you were able to find an 008 distributor at an autowrecker in Vancouver - just assumed they had no 02 parts left, let alone tii parts.

The correct distributor for the 74 tii is 180013 and that one includes the dashpot which is attached to the decel valve mounted on top of the 74tii air cleaner. Interesting enough, Jeff at Advanced is adamant that the vacuum advance on the 013 hurts performance. He said to plug the vacuum line to the dashpot, set the advance at idle to 12 - 15 degrees BTDC, and then leave it as is. I plan to try it both ways (factory and his) and see if there is much of a difference.

John

Yes 99 percent sure the us 74tii is vacuum retard/centrifugal advance. With the vacuum being strongest at idle or under deceleration removes several degrees of advance from the engine. The 013 is curved with that in mind. I believe the 74tii kf pump had some minor tweaks as well.

 

edit- there are 2 013 dizzys 

0 231 180 013 for the 74tii

0 231 160 013 is for automatics

 

Somewhat related discussion that can go round and round is correct ignition coil ;p . I just remember the 74tii has the resistor wire...lol

 

great project!

Edited March 27, 2017 by pilotnbr1

['76mintgrün'02]

I'll add my 1% and agree about vacuum retard, vs advance for the x xxx 180 013.

 

Pilot, that helps me understand its function.  I forgot that the vacuum source makes a huge difference; meaning ported, vs. manifold vacuum.  I sort of understand how this works with a carburetted engine, but not the tii.  

 

You may have already found this thread, Paul, but I will drop it here just in case.

They explain that there are TWO distributors which end in 013, just like the 008!

The model that JAS mentions is the one you are after 0231 180 013, not the 0231 168 013.

 

They also mention the relationship between the distributor and the specific Kfish for your engine, as well as that decel valve.

All those parts have to play well together.

 

Complicated-er and complicated-er-er.

 

This is one of those 'the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know' topics for me.

 

-Tom

[tii1on]

I have not dug into my 72tii as of yet but the typical function of the diaphragm advance / retard mechanism is to pull in a few extra degrees under conditions such as economy cruise but when a manifold pressure / RPM combination that is likely to induce detonation is encountered, the diaphragm backs out some advance. i.e. when you are following an RV you likely have max centrifugal and vacuum advance but when that passing slot opens up and you turf the pedal, the vacuum portion of the advance goes away allaying detonation. Often, the vacuum port is non-op when at idle to keep slow rpm timing limited to that provided by the flyweights. Again, though, the above is merely typical of a vacuum 'enhanced' system. Short version: more vacuum = more advance.

[PaulTWinterton]

As usual I'm learning a lot about the differences in dizzies and functions.

 

But the big question is where do I get me one of those  0 231 180 013 for the 74tii engine?

Edited March 27, 2017 by PaulTWinterton

['76mintgrün'02]

"turf the pedal"  good one, Bryan.

 

on carbureted engines, you have two choices for vacuum source, manifold and ported.  There is an ongoing debate about which to use and I am in the ported camp.  With ported vacuum, what you say is true.  No advance is being added at idle (although none should be coming from the weights at that rpm either).  However, using manifold vacuum pulls in advance at idle as well.  The difference in those 'sources' is above or below the throttle plates.  I have no clue about the tii and what the vacuum source options are.

 

as for finding one, I wish I could help...

I just missed this sale on the FAQ a couple of weeks ago, which included the OTHER 013 unit.  (darn! darn! darn!  -- addicted, you see)

 

[PaulTWinterton]

Is it cool to delete the vacuum advance on the 74tii engine, using a 180 008 distributor?  Jeff at Advanced says he does it all the time.  I'm not married to originality, if a strictly mechanical dizzy is curved for this engine.  What say ye?

['76mintgrün'02]

I don't think Jeff does much at all with the vacuum pots, does he?  People have said he recommends eliminating that feature on their vacuum advance distributors (carbureted engines).  I can see why he might do that.  The vacuum 'map' is going to vary between engines and without that information, he cannot predict how it will act.  I mapped my vac signal and put that on the advance curve I made.  Then plotted the curve using both sources of advance, manifold and ported.  The vac map would allow me to know what is happening to the curve, while driving, as opposed to the mechanical only equation.  Revving the engine in the carport, to make that map may well be different than what happens under load.  I don't know.  I just think there may be too many unknowns for him to be able to include that aspect.  Just a guess... or two.

 

I believe vac advance is g00d for carbed cars.  thus, eliminating it may be a short cut.  I do not see the reason for vac retard, other than emissions, but I am new to this.

 

The thing is, the spark is a response to the fueling situation, as in, more advance is needed when the mix is slower to burn.  Carbs do a crappy job of prepping the mix to explode, compared to injected cars, so more advance is needed.  the reason I bring this up is because they changed the Kfish characteristics year to year (right?) and so the corresponding advance is different.  Hence, the specific pump/year/distributor relationship... as I understand it.

 

Jeff has a good reputation and probably for good reason.  If you had him make the 008 you have work for your engine, that would be a good selling point and the buyer would know where to go if they needed something changed.  I really think he can take almost any distributor and make it do what you need it to, if he has a few new parts to choose from.

 

I also think the only way to really dial in the BEST (ish) curve is with a WB02 sensor and a dyno. Oh, might as well add a knock sensor to the equation (like the legendary jimK).  

 

This is where the 123 would be an awesome tool, even for the originality freaks (no offense, I'm with ya).  You could have the car on a dyno, with a sensor and tweak that curve (with your freaking phone), to get it just right.  Then have someone like Jeff replicate THAT curve using cool little weights and springs.

 

Someone in that last thread-link I posted referred to a distributor guy who would only do the 'complete package', pump, valve and distributor (iirc).  That makes total sense, but would not be cheap.  

 

I'll bet if you took the weights, springs and center post out of a 180 013 and put them in your 180 008, you would have the 180 013 curve.  I'll also bet Jeff has a lot of nice new bits and pieces to choose from.

 

Time for me to Google "Distributors Anonymous".

-Tom