Swan necks!

[Lisa.02P]

Swan Necks!

So those who know.... These early swan neck driver side mirrors for the 02 are a rarity.... But maybe the 'PC purists' can help me understand them...

I have one that is stamped with 'made in Germany'

The other is stamped with a weird symbol on it?

I am assuming that the one made in Germany is the original... But what is the other? [emoji848]

[zinz]

I'll have to check mine...

[Mark92131]

I have the "Made in Germany" mark on my original Swan Mirror on my Cab.  Maybe the other one is a reproduction / replacement part produced during the period, aka URO?

The mirrors in your picture seem to be turned the wrong way, with the wider section closer to the body of the car when mounted.  I have been looking for another one for quite some time for the passenger side.  They look very sexy, but don't provide much visibility for traffic in your blind spot.

 

Good score...

 

Mark92131

[avoirdupois]

Not a direct answer to your question, but something to ponder?

 

Mine are hiding in the attic and were obtained well before the wall fell.  Suspect they were marked "West" Germany.  But maybe not.

 

Vaguely recall seeing something similar at a Koln dealer that was most-probably new issue with a tiny roundel stamping, similar to that found on some of the flag side mirrors.  It is also possible that those mirrors or something very similar were used on other marques of the same period.

Edited June 29, 2016 by avoirdupois

[visionaut]

If they're 'original', and marked, they'd definitely say "West Germany" or more likely "W Germany"...  All my original parts, if marked, are such.

 

[zinz]

OK... here's a 3rd marking.

 

On the vanilla car.  The PO added the swan neck, so I have no idea of the provenance. It has a circular mark with the letters hohe... as best as I can make out.  I have a feeling it is not a BMW issue, as the shape is not quite the same as the others.  But I like it.

 

 

The other one I have is more standard, marked with three stars and "MADE IN GERMANY"

 

 

And here's what it looks like on the other side... rolling back from MidAmerica02Fest !

 

 

Enjoy,

 

Ed Z

[HBChris]

My 69 02 had one of these and my 69 2000NK desperately needs a pair, I currently have traps installed.  Anyone have a pair they would part with?  Long shot, I know.

 

chris

[avoirdupois]

15 hours ago, HBChris said:

My 69 02 had one of these and my 69 2000NK desperately needs a pair, I currently have traps installed.  Anyone have a pair they would part with?  Long shot, I know.

 

chris

 

 

I cannot recall if the so-called "swans" use the same mount as the traps (and later flags) i.e., two holes with an exterior pot metal brace/mount to which the mirror is mechanically bound via a grub screw.  At the risk of over generalizing, most mirrors of the '50s and '60s seemed to go the more direct route with one or two holes directly securing the mirror.  If the holes are close to your preexisting "trap" holes, and you don't mind looking beyond BMW and borders, have you considered some of the offerings for other German, if not Euro marques of the era?  It seems that most makes used long stem "swan neck" mirrors, some of which might work for you and be period correct.  Of course, details are important and I do understand if there was a specific type and brand you are seeking.

 

Lancia mirrors?

 

 

 

 

 

Albert "swan necks" for your 356 or Type 1?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Types W110, W111, W112, W113 etc.?

 

 

And there are British versions too.

[Mike Self]

Early style or "swan neck" mirrors 101...

 

Since BMW didn't make their own mirrors, the got 'em from outside suppliers.  So far I've discovered three different maker's names on these mirrors.  The pictures Zinz showed are the same three makers I'm aware of.  Two have the glass crimped in place, the third maker used a plastic moulding to hold the glass.  I've harvested all three brands of these mirrors from 2002 (and NK) parts cars over the years, so know they are all "correct" for both NK and early 02s.   

 

Those mirrors are a bear to refurbish.  To replate the arm and base, you must remove the stainless steel mirror head, and the only way to do that is to remove the glass to get access to the retaining nut.  And when removing the glass it invariably breaks; but that's OK as the original anti-glare glass  is prone to lose its backing.  If you're interested, I did a Roundel column on refurbishing those mirrors (not for the faint of heart).  Drop me an IM and I'll send you a copy.

 

Lisa, the picture you posted of the mirror with the "weird logo" on it is meant for a NK sedan or a very early 1600, where the mirror is mounted on the very leading edge of the door.  The stud on the mirror base passes through the edge of the door skin.  Later mirrors mount directly (no bracket/set screw like the trapezoid and flag mirrors) with two machine screws that are fastened to cage nuts pressed into the door skin.  

 

Incidentally, these mirrors are not "handed" like later ones; they can be used on either left or right doors.  But unless you're going for originality on your car, they're much smaller than the later mirrors and don't provide nearly the view of say, a flag mirror.  I wouldn't advise replacing your larger mirrors with these if you're gonna drive the car very much.  

 

Avdoirpous' first two pictures labeled "Lancia mirrors" are of a generic CIPA (French company) mirror that was used a lot on Peugeots, Renaults, Simcas and (I think) Citroens.  I bought one some years ago to put on my '59 Renault 4CV, which didn't come equipped with an outside rearview mirror--kinda frightening when you consider the Renault's back window was smaller than an early Beetle's. But then early Beetles didn't have outside rearview mirrors either. 

 

cheers

mike

[avoirdupois]

8 hours ago, mike said:

Early style or "swan neck" mirrors 101...

 

Since BMW didn't make their own mirrors, the got 'em from outside suppliers.  So far I've discovered three different maker's names on these mirrors.  The pictures Zinz showed are the same three makers I'm aware of. 

 

Mike, how about "swan necks" 102 or remedial 101?

 

You mention being aware of three makers of the sn side mirrors used on the NK sedans and early Type 114.  In so doing, you seem to be foreclosing the possibility of other mirror makers.  I am thinking of Italian-made mirrors mounted on a TR4 that given away because they protruded too far from the body.  At the time JCWhitney, Western Auto, V.Hahn and Pep Boys, among many others,  marketed such things for all makes and models, maybe even a few not officially sold in the US - yet.  Having never formally studied swan neck mirrors or their use on BMWs,  I defer to your knowledge.

 

If you really want to get stretch the swan's neck there were "passing eye" mirrors  for seeing ahead. (below).

 

 

The "country of origin" stamp piqued my curiosity.  Many wrenches and other tools supplied from most German manufacturers, from approximately '49 through '90, seem to bear a made in "West or W" Germany mark, to distinguish those products from the GDR origin.  Still, not all parts made in West Germany bore those markings.  Some countries may have had import laws requiring country of origin stampings to distinguish imported products from their own home-grown variety, and this is still the case, which explains the plain country moniker.  However, it is doubtful FRG product would have been confused with GDR product since the latter was not exporting much to the West, forgetting about any obvious quality comparisons.  It would be interesting to know what parts on our cars or their accessories did bear the "Western," "West" or "W" Germany markings versus plain "Germany."

 

In the short time since reading your post I note several cooking utensils, tools, and a few parts that came from the PX all bear the "West" markings.  My shop manuals state BMW published them, Munchen 40, "West Germany," yet under the reservation of rights, is "Printed in Germany."   Bosch spark plugs and other Bosch parts of the period do not seem to carry the "W" markings.  Now I am wondering if the original German-made snow tires were embossed with "W" on the sidewalls.  All of this causes me to conclude the German-made swan neck mirrors may not have been marked "Made in W/West/Western Germany."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2016 by avoirdupois

[02Anders]

Well a lot has been said here already, so I'm not sure I can actually contribute any further.
But for what ever it is worth, I can confirm that like Mike, I too am convinced that all three of these swan neck mirrors have indeed been used by BMW as OEM factory installed mirrors.  On a very unscientific level, my observations have lead me to believe that the 3 stared "Made in Germany" mirror is the most commonly used by BMW, but both the Hohe mirror and the third type with that obscure "A" symbol have equally been used by the factory.

 

I can add that on 02's the swan neck mirror was used up until the '69 model went into production on 09/68.  On the first 1600-2's the swan neck was installed at the very leading edge of the door.  This configuration was continued right from the start in 03/66 and up to 09/67 from when the '68 model went into production. For the '68 model the swan neck mirror was still in use, but they repositioned it to just behind the quarterlight, where all door mirrors of course continued to live on all further 02's whether that be the trapezoid mirror or the flag mirror.

 

Here's the 3 stared "Made in Germany" mirror on my August '66 BMW 1600-2:

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by 02Anders

[arminyack]

I may as well chime in with my swan necks! I have 2....and both are different. One is, I believe, the original one that came with my car: it has the "A" marking on the back, and has the mounting stud in front. The glass is gone, and the pivot is all rusty. 

 

The second is from an NK car...no stud in front, glass is intact. It bears the "Made in Germany" mark

 

 

I'll probably put both of them up for sale fairly soon.

 

 

[02Anders]

18 hours ago, arminyack said:

I'll probably put both of them up for sale fairly soon.

 

 

Hmmm... seems like a wasted opportunity to me...
I absolutely love the simple and unadorned look of your early Chamonix 02.  The small bumpers in combination with the all-chrome grills (yes, I obviously know they're not real chrome, but you know what I mean...    ) look just right, and then with a subtle edge to it thanks to the Opel Rallye steelies and those Marchal spots.  
To my eye at least, the only thing distracting is that massive flag mirror!  A swan neck would quite frankly just make it perfect...  

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by 02Anders

[HBChris]

My former 11/68 1969 2002 had an original driver side swan mirror in the rearward position as you stated.

[Mike Self]

And my Feb '69 production '02 came with a mirror that has the 3 stars logo, mounted back on the door with screws and cage nuts--and the anti-glare coating on the back side of the glass was deteriorating when I took delivery on it in May '69--and got worse from there.

 

mike