engine and drivetrain Tii Kugelfischer or Megasquirt or 318i L-jet!? M10 or M20!? I think I'm going mad.

[2761377]

all this talk of engine swaps on a Tii makes me ill. obviously OP, you haven't driven a well-sorted Tii. 

 

first thing to do is verify your "spare" long block and see if it matches the chassis of the car. if so, your goal is to fix the mess the PO(s) left. do whatever you want to the current motor while spending the big money on the correct one.

 

after 40 years on you can expect the K-fisch needs attention.

[vinceg14]

Re reading my own post and your comments winstonj has helped me realize the spelling and grammar I used was poorly presented. Rude. No way.

Since you could not interpret my questions to you about the 180 horse power M10 you suggested. I will ask you again.

 

Please explain what parts, cost and processes are used to build a reliable 180 horse power M10. I am not saying your wrong. I am asking you to back up your comments. 

 

Do not interpret my comments as an attack on you. Most of us are here to learn about the 2002. If you are going to suggest I use the search function and learn for myself then whats the point of posting questions and responding. 

[winstontj]

I think I suggested this earlier. I'm still a fan of the OP picking up a second M10B20 motor and a 5-speed gearbox to mod tastefully and use that in the tii while at the same time putting the tii bits in a corner to be either stored or worked on/restored back to stock. 

 

 

I have been fortunate enough to drive 2002's of many varieties and supplying-parts-for-while-assisting literally hundreds more. Aside from my own preferences, I get to hear first hand feedback from all sorts of 2002 projects literally every day. Some time ago I learned that propping up any idea by attempting to tear down a different view was not in anyones best interest. Your methodology follows that manner and that is what initially irked me.

 

Much of what you said about the M20 swap does reflect a simply lack of first hand experience and just reflects old regurgitated fallacies.  I get that in the past you may have been used to seeing people do the swap simply because it was a cheap source of power, BUT you need to realize that there have been a number of very well respected shops/people who are putting together fantastically capable M20'02 swaps together.

 

Your main argument for the M20 was weight, so I simply believe that the argument of comparing an M10 in ANY form is valid (Are you then very opposed to a similar-weighing 2002 with AC equipped, since it's handling would be equally as compromised?). As for cutting.... YES, in your absence it has been proven that the swap can be done completely without cutting (again, see my reference in the first response).

 

All this being considered, your first argument was out of line and is what spoiled the thread, i certainly kept the ball rolling though. The idea that your one train of thought is the only correct one is laughable but understandable. Ironically, one of my current projects IS putting together a number of street-stroker m10 kits and if you have a couple M20 245's to get sell I'd be happy to get the details to pass them on.

 

Andrew you are missing the point and your arguments are flawed. I am happy to compare an M10 powered car with AC and the battery under the hood to an M20 powered 2002 also with AC and its battery under the hood. In my opinion the battery shouldn't be a consideration and it seems like the only reason why you included it is because in order to try and validate your argument that an M10 = M20 swap, you needed to include 25-30 pounds of weight, strategically placed in the worst place possible on the M10 car. If you want the battery in the trunk for the M20 then it also needs to be in the trunk for the M10 --or just don't include it at all. If the battery is not included then the M10 car will be overall lighter than the M20 car, and the balance of the M10 car will be much closer to 50/50 than the M20 car. 

 

Same goes with selectively choosing to add AC to the M10 car. You cannot compare a car with a weighted down M10 to a car with a lightened M20. That simply is not an apples to apples comparison. Yes, an M10 with a battery in the nose and a bunch of heavy, aftermarket accessories might handle similarly to a stripped down M20. 

 

I dislike that you continue to dig at me. You don't know me and you don't know anything about me or my experience.

 

Everywhere I have found puts a "dressed" M20 & gearbox at 100-120 pounds heavier than a "dressed M10 and gearbox. All of that weight is forward, much of it forward of the M10's #1 cylinder. When you factor in everything else required for the M20 (oil cooler, larger radiator and cooling requirements, steering/rack and subframe mods, exhaust [some of which balances out the added weight in front of the front wheels by placing a larger and heavier muffler behind the rear wheels]) you end up with an overall much heavier 2002 when an M20 is added --which then requires suspension and braking considerations, etc. All of which I have previously mentioned. For the record, I'm not just making this up. I have done a bunch of four-to-six cylinder conversions across several different BMW chassis. In the end you can easily end up with a car weighing 200-250 pounds more than the 4-cyl motor. It just is what it is. 

 

Re reading my own post and your comments winstonj has helped me realize the spelling and grammar I used was poorly presented. Rude. No way.

Since you could not interpret my questions to you about the 180 horse power M10 you suggested. I will ask you again.

 

Please explain what parts, cost and processes are used to build a reliable 180 horse power M10. I am not saying your wrong. I am asking you to back up your comments. 

 

Do not interpret my comments as an attack on you. Most of us are here to learn about the 2002. If you are going to suggest I use the search function and learn for myself then whats the point of posting questions and responding. 

 

 

I apologize for my first response to you. A quick Google search and you would have had your answers. I am unsure of the drivetrain loss in a 2002. My number of 180hp was at the crank so assuming roughly 15%-18% loss that would be about 150whp. In my opinion, a 180hp M10 motor is at or possibly over the limit of what most would call "streetable" however, "streetable" varies greatly depending on situation. Individual skills, mechanical ability, and intended/planned use of the vehicle all hugely impact the cost required to get a motor and car combination to what is considered streetable, reliable, driveable, etc. for its owner. 

 

It all comes down to budget and what you can afford. Money buys well designed parts and work/labor with lots of R&D behind them. Money also gives you access to people and parts --access to the the people with the knowledge to help you build the motor & car you want. A good EFI & EMS can help smooth out idle, rev, power curves, hot and cold start, etc. 

 

In terms of a recipe to build a 180hp motor, there is a lot of information in past threads of this forum. Generally, you increase displacement and make the top end flow better. There is a lot of good reading on the links below. There is such a wide range of ways to get to a desired horsepower number that it would be hard to make a specific list. In theory you could use a 2.7L s14 block with an M10 head and probably get well over 200 "streetable" horsepower. Take a look at this link from a few years back: http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/52540-m10-stroker-ws14-evo-crank/

 

There is a lot to consider in building a motor. How do you want it to behave? Where and how do you want it to idle? How do you want it to rev? Does it need to run on pump gas? You need to increase displacement to get anywhere near a streetable motor with 180 at the crank. Usually people increase both bore and stroke (with an s14 crankshaft). That said, according to this documentation, Alpina was getting anywhere from 125-160hp from a 2.0L motor with bumped compression and a cam. (http://www.bmwe21.net/Alpina.pdf link from e21 site but m10m20 engine) That is a range of 62.5-80hp per liter on a performance car which was marketed to the public (streetable). Taking that same range and applying it to a stroker motor (variants listed below) you could achieve 180hp easily. 

 

84 bore x 71 stroke = 1773cc (110.8-141.8hp)

 

89 bore x 80 stroke = 1991cc (stock m10 2.0L) 

 

92 bore x 80 stroke = 2128cc (stock m10 crank/stroke, increased bore) (133-170.2hp)

 

92 bore x 84 stroke = 2234cc (139.6-178.7hp) 

 

92 bore x 87 stroke = 2314cc (144.6-185hp)

 

These numbers of 62.5-80hp per liter are fairly easy to achieve (today) and are very "streetable" in my opinion. They are fairly easy to achieve because it is well documented and companies like BMW, Alpina, Schnitzer and others have poured a lot of time, effort and money into the R&D to get there decades ago. It gets expensive to (naturally aspirated) get up closer to 100hp per liter and hard, if not impossible to get up above that on an 8-valve NA motor. Numbers up in the 75-85hp per liter, possibly even into the higher 80's, are realistic on a reasonable budget, especially with something like megasquirt and a combination of increased compression, a decent cam, head/port work and proper intake/exhaust choices. Other tricks like a manual fan delete, oiling and crank work can get you 3-5hp that would allow you to hit a magic number you might have in your head. 

 

Hope that helps with an answer on a 180hp m10 motor. 

 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=bmw%20m10%20horsepower

 

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1485930-Let-s-talk-naturally-aspirated-m10-horsepower

[ray_]

We know what (we think) a stock '02 weighs.

 

Post your weights and corner weights for the M20 conversions.

 

Cheers,

Edited November 29, 2015 by ray_

[Gordon]

Send your injectors and pump to Jerry Fairchild, reasonable price, fast turnaround and great customer service. Just my .02 cents worth.

http://www.fuelinjectioncenter.com/

 

G-Man

Edited November 29, 2015 by Gordon

[AceAndrew]

We know what (we think) a stock '02 weighs.

 

Post your weights and corner weights for the M20 conversions.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Winston, I still maintain that your initial argument remains flawed as well and to that I can just agree to disagree for now.  While your "internet-derived" information is well intentioned, the growing fact is that you still have not driven an M20'02 yourself, is this not true?  This is not meant as a personal dig, just something I think is an important consideration. The need for additional components you mentioned could also be considered for any number of swap/stock engine options ... this would be interesting with the information were stored.

 

I really like ray's proposition and would happily take it a step further.  I would be happy to facilitate the building of a spreadsheet containing vehicle weights by year, swap, trim, etc. Ideally this would also mean corner weights.   This also means first hand data, not taken out of an old factory text (yes, even "known" info)  It wouldn't be perfect, just a lot better than we have now. Winston, if as you said is true and you'd like to contribute to a better comparison, perhaps this would be amicable to you.

Edited November 30, 2015 by AceAndrew

[gastephens]

Why do people think that changing something will ever be easier, cheaper, or more dependable than fixing something that is already 90% right and was well-designed to begin with?

 

Bite the bullet and get a real tii expert to figure out the problem and fix it. You will then have years of satisfying service from your 2002 and it will be worth more if you ever decide to sell it.

 

If you have so much time to put into an engine or fuel injection swap then get a second job and pay to fix your car. I like a good car project as much as the next guy but I never delude myself that they are going to be anything but time, money, and headaches.

[lilmo]

 

one of his guys got it running but he said it would get progressively more lean over ~20 minutes and start to sputter/stall.

Sounds like your warm up regulator is functioning.  Find a new mechanic who knows the tii. Many fine tiis suffered the fate(s) you're considering due to lazy shop work by mechanics who don't know the tii.  Can't believe it's still going on.

 

Get it tuned correctly, send your spare pump & injectors out for a rebuild, put them under your bed, and then start saving for the engine rebuild you'll need down the road.

Edited November 30, 2015 by lilmo

[saaron]

You wanted opinions...generally, I'm a "live and let live" guy.  A "it's your car, do what you want" guy.  "It's your money".  

 

But not in this case, I guess.

 

Sell the tii.  Most tii owners that I know gladly take on a bit of a caretaker role when it comes to the car.  They didn't make a ton of tiis; they are a little special in that regard.  But maybe you don't want that sort of role.  Let someone else be the caretaker.  It doesn't sound like you do.  

 

tii people like the fact that it is a tii, and don't fantasize much about engine swaps, or un-tii ing it.  They do little things, but mostly enjoy it for what it is.

 

Buy another 02 and basically build it to exactly what you want.   Put a V-12 in it from a 750i.  Put a new BMW turbo four in there.  Go nuts and have fun.  Seriously - do the best M20 build ever.  I think you will feel like you are in a straight-jacket with the tii.  You cannot express your true 02 self currently.  

 

I know what happened to you - it happens to a lot of people.  You start reading a bunch of stuff and you start wanting things you don't have.  And you have a tii, so you can't just put a bigger cam and dual 45s or ITB Mega Squirt on it, and it makes you want stuff even more badly.  

 

Really just my opinion.  But I think you'd be happier going down the build path, and selling the tii can fund a lot of that.

 

Scott

[Rooncicle]

So here's what I'm taking away from all the feedback that I've gotten - which I truly appreciate:

• I will not regret putting the time and money into tuning/repairing (and restoring where necessary) the original system; the same cannot be said definitively for an engine swap.
• If the spare engine has matching numbers, get it fixed up since it will increase the car's value should I ever want to sell it.
• The experience of a sorted out tii is magical.
• If I want to mod an 02, get a base model - probably one that needs some love, since it will be cheaper and I'll be ripping out most of the guts anyway.
• 02 owners are very passionate about their cars and modding a tii - even small changes - can be a highly contentious (and at times heated) topic.

So, I've ordered new linkages so I can run through the full tii pump tuning process in it's entirety. I'll send my injectors (the current ones and the four spares) and spare pump to get bench tested, then start squirreling away some cash if a rebuild is necessary. New filters, fuel lines, gaskets/bushings, & other basic maintenance items. 

 

Other recommendations?

[adawil2002]

So here's what I'm taking away from all the feedback that I've gotten - which I truly appreciate:

• I will not regret putting the time and money into tuning/repairing (and restoring where necessary) the original system; the same cannot be said definitively for an engine swap.
• If the spare engine has matching numbers, get it fixed up since it will increase the car's value should I ever want to sell it.
• The experience of a sorted out tii is magical.
• If I want to mod an 02, get a base model - probably one that needs some love, since it will be cheaper and I'll be ripping out most of the guts anyway.
• 02 owners are very passionate about their cars and modding a tii - even small changes - can be a highly contentious (and at times heated) topic.

So, I've ordered new linkages so I can run through the full tii pump tuning process in it's entirety. I'll send my injectors (the current ones and the four spares) and spare pump to get bench tested, then start squirreling away some cash if a rebuild is necessary. New filters, fuel lines, gaskets/bushings, & other basic maintenance items. 

 

Other recommendations?

 

Sounds like you are going down the correct path with the Tii.

Other recommendations? When replacing the linkage rods grease the cups and use a grabber to hold the 85mm rods. Especially the lower rod under the intakes.

[Rooncicle]

Thanks, adawil2002. A tii engine compartment is like a black hole for the little bits.

[winstontj]

Rooncicle I'm sorry to be going on like this in your thread but I just can't let it go . An m20 powered 2002 is a fun car --but you can put a turbo on an m10 and easily get the same power as a stock or modded m20 without the added weight or need to cut sheet metal. 

 

Before you decide on any performance upgrades get your stock tii running well. From there you can decide how much further you want to go with it but its very easy to want more from a car that is not running in its best state. It might be possible that any additional performance (or reliability) gains you seek can be had in the form of a good tune. I really don't know that much about the KF pumps as I've only had the opportunity to drive restored/maintained cars but never own/work on a tii. From what I remember, if you are going to have your second pump sent out to be rebuilt, that is an excellent time to choose other performance upgrades (added compression or cam). The pump builder can fine-tune the base settings to your car which is a better place to start from. A bunch of others have done this before so I'm sure they will either chime in when the time is right, or the place you send it to should know what to do if you tell them what crank/pistons/compression/cam you are running. 

 

Old mechanical fuel injection is like many other things in life: when its good, its amazing but when its bad, you probably want to set it on fire and run away. I have an old Bosch VE-type diesel injection pump attached to a 6-cyl Nissan motor which is somewhat a second generation to the KF pumps. The KF uses pistons for fuel delivery while the VE uses a distributor but they are similar in a lot of ways (belt driven, mechanical delivery, similar linkages, etc.) and each have their own nuances (for example, diesel mechanical pumps need reverse rotation prevention because a diesel motor can start backwards). They can seem overwhelming (like a black hole) and they do need to be very precise but once you get the hang of them they really aren't that bad. 

 

http://arrc.ebscohost.com/ebsco_static/repair-tips/8852CH15_KUGELFISCHER_MECHANICAL_FUEL_IN.htm

http://arrc.ebscohost.com/ebsco_static/repair-tips/chiltonimages/8000/8852ex22L.jpg

 

Glad to see you are keeping the tii a tii for the time being... 

 

 

Winston, I still maintain that your initial argument remains flawed 

 

My initial argument made a few points, all of which were either factual or generally/commonly accepted by the 2002 community --at least they were a few years ago. I said that an M20 swap would ruin the authenticity of a tii as well as devalue the car (due to the required cutting of the chassis/metal). I also said that M20 swapped cars do not weigh the same as stock cars and therefore the swapped car's handling characteristics would change, requiring additional modifications, none of which would ever have the car driving the same as a stock tii. I offered what I believe to be a generally accepted opinion, that a stock 2002 or tii in good form and having been well maintained, are VERY fun cars to drive --and I also said that money is a factor simply because S14's are expensive compared to M20's. I then closed by trying to suggest the OP a few options that would allow his car to stay either stock, or give him the ability to return his car to stock form and maintain its value. 

 

I'd like to know exactly what is flawed in that.

As far as I know, you must cut of modify the sheet metal of a 2002 to put an M20 into the car. Once that happens the car will never be the same. It may be a "restored tii" but it will never be an "original, unrestored tii", ever again. S14's are on average more expensive than M20's and the M20 motor, no matter how you try and slice it, is heavier than an M10 motor or an S14. 

 

 

 

I can just agree to disagree for now. 

 

I don't agree to disagree. Either go away and stop posting digs at me or take the time to show exactly where I am flawed, ignorant, factually incorrect, wrong, or other as you accuse. Also post up some of your "first-hand" 2002 M10 & M20 overall weights & specs as well as corner weights as was suggested.

 

 

While your "internet-derived" information is well intentioned, the growing fact is that you still have not driven an M20'02 yourself, is this not true?

 

I always bite when people like you continue to post as you are. Especially because you infer over and over that I have little or no first-hand experience about any of this. I should learn to stop but at some point it becomes a bit of fun for me to prove you wrong and expose your ignorance. I have said a bunch of times that you don't know anything about me (just as I don't know you). I have not only driven m20 2002's with 245 and 260 gearboxes, naturally aspirated and turbo; once upon a time I put an m20b25 with a Getrag 245 into a 1975  shell. You could not be more wrong about your assumptions of me. 

 

 

The need for additional components you mentioned could also be considered for any number of swap/stock engine options ... 

 

Wrong. Just wrong. 

While you are correct that the owner of a 2002 or even a tii might consider an 18-wheeler airbag suspension, adding power steering, adding ABS or airbags, upgrading to a 4-wheel drive drivetrain, or other; those would all be voluntary options whereas the M20 REQUIRES additional components which add more overall sprung weight to the vehicle in places (forward of the front wheels) that most would consider less than ideal. Not to mention the other physical differences such as horsepower, exhaust and braking; all of which if addressed properly would add additional weight.

 

 

This also means first hand data, not taken out of an old factory text (yes, even "known" info)  

Yet another dig.... I believe the M20 (for road cars) ceased production in 1992 or 1993 and marine variants of the M20 ceased production in late 1994 or 1995 --this means that best-case the M20 is 20 years old and the M10 & 2002 combo is quickly approaching 50 years old. Any factory manual, text or documentation is going to be old --because the cars and engines we are talking about are all old. If it is "known" information (regardless of age), especially if it is from the factory, it should be given equal or higher weighting/consideration than anything published today, unless today's information is proven to be more accurate.

 

Example:

Some BMW factory horsepower numbers are now generally considered to be "conservative estimates", a case in point is the Spec E30 class and the BMW M20B25 motor. Numerous engines in various states were all tested on similar dyno's and the overwhelming majority of well-maintained, stock engines were generally producing equal or more horsepower than BMW had published in its factory manuals. In this case, the results of much time, effort, research, testing, and most importantly, very well recorded facts and examples were published publicly so that the evidence could be viewed and reviewed, giving the public a chance to refute or dispute any fact findings. 

 

If you would like to dispute an old factory manual, please do so with facts and evidence. One can not simply discredit widely accepted "known" information on the basis that it is "old". 

 

 

Winston, if as you said is true and you'd like to contribute to a better comparison, perhaps this would be amicable to you.

Andrew, if you want me to be honest, I don't really want much of anything to do with you nor do I really care about an M10 vs. M20 comparison. I know what I know from personal experience and anything I don't know I will either figure out on my own or ask someone I trust --which is not you. Just post up some M20 powered 2002's overall and corner weights and put this to bed already. My m20 car was all-in about 300-350# heavier than the stock m10 car that it started out as. To be fair, the weights were taken on a truck scale at a scrapyard and the M10 car was a rusty mess when it was weighed and was missing at least the spare tire well and some of the floors --not sure if the rust, dirt/leaves and plants growing in the back seat weighed more or less than the sheet metal that was missing. 

 

I also know that when I weigh the "dressed" m10b20 + Getrag 245 and m20b25 + Getrag 245 motor & transmissions in my garage the m20 combo is a little over 120# heavier than the m10. Both are attached to subframes. The M10's steering box is still there while the M20's subframe is bare. The M20 has no PS pump or exhaust manifolds but does have a LW flywheel and lightened PP. The m10 has a tii exhaust manifold and a 320is intake manifold with m20 tb. Add in the m20's exhaust manifolds, oil cooler (and extra oil that the m20 takes) and a steering rack/solution... and you have just about the weight of an extra passenger (about 150#) all at, or in front of the front wheels. 

 

 

[AceAndrew]

  I am happy to hear of your experience, and apologize if you have been offended. I simply feel that experience does play a roll in something like this which is why I pursued it while you resisted.

 

I will say it again in closing, the M20 swap has been done without any cutting. This is contrary to what you've said.  Swaps/stock builds of all types can vary in how they are done and contrary to what you said they OFTEN REQUIRE additional components (s14, m42, even turbo m10).  Your initial argument presented one specific version of the M20 swap, the narrowest version. That is in part what I took issue with.

 

I understand you care passionately about an “original, unrestored tii”, however, looking back the OP never said that his car fell into that rarefied circle. To be absolutely clear, I am not campaigning that the M20 is even remotely the right option in this instance (refer to my very first post in this thread), I'm just in disagreement with your opinion.

 

Looking forward to gathering data points in the months to come.

Edited December 3, 2015 by AceAndrew