engine and drivetrain Tii Kugelfischer or Megasquirt or 318i L-jet!? M10 or M20!? I think I'm going mad.

[vinceg14]

I feel your confusion. I have a 67 with some rust. It was a SCCA autocross car and needs a complete redo. Like you I am considering the driving experience when I plan my route to its rebuild. I have gone back and forth in my head with the engine choice several times. I am going with an M20 and here is my reasons. I need more than 150 HP and I don't want to have to micro mange its performance. My Driving will be a a blend of long distance trips ( Monterrey can you here me!) spirited roads around the So Cal Mountains and regular city driving. Its not my Daily and I want to hop in and go when I I get the urge to take off. 

 

I do not know everything there is about the M20 but Ireland knows it and the M10 as much as anyone. My plan is to take a 325 IS motor, Have the head rebuilt with a 284/280 cam. Stroke the bottom end with a  2.9 stroker kit and use the megasquirt management system.  There is a lot more to it but I feel this will make a quick accelerating car with Mid range grunt. The one super custom thing I want to do is to place the M20 as far back as possible and I may customize thew firewall. 

[Rooncicle]

Thanks for the info, I'll do some research. I've not read up on MS too much, so I'll need to familiarize myself with it. sounds like a pretty accessible option and i like that it would be easy to revert.

How about a MS EFI conversion using an early "log style" e21 intake manifold? If done properly it can be made to look much like a tii engine bay. So much so that it would take a good eye to spot the differences and there are a lot of performance mods that can be done within those confines.

You can keep everything such that it could be swapped back and turned back into the original engine/car easily. Parts of the e21 engine harness can be plugged into the tii and then spliced so the tii harness can be kept unmolested. The early e21 log intake manifold will bolt directly onto your tii head without any modifications.

[Rooncicle]

That sounds intense compared to what I'm looking for, but fun. I'm more of a hop in and take a cruise up the coast or quiet mountain roads, you know? And I'd like to be able to take occasional long road trips around the Pacific Northwest.

I'm split between MS w/ e21 parts or an M20 swap. I may even go with the MS e21 combo and eventually upgrade to an M20 if it still interests me, since I'll already have the MS set up.

I feel your confusion. I have a 67 with some rust. It was a SCCA autocross car and needs a complete redo. Like you I am considering the driving experience when I plan my route to its rebuild. I have gone back and forth in my head with the engine choice several times. I am going with an M20 and here is my reasons. I need more than 150 HP and I don't want to have to micro mange its performance. My Driving will be a a blend of long distance trips ( Monterrey can you here me!) spirited roads around the So Cal Mountains and regular city driving. Its not my Daily and I want to hop in and go when I I get the urge to take off.

I do not know everything there is about the M20 but Ireland knows it and the M10 as much as anyone. My plan is to take a 325 IS motor, Have the head rebuilt with a 284/280 cam. Stroke the bottom end with a 2.9 stroker kit and use the megasquirt management system. There is a lot more to it but I feel this will make a quick accelerating car with Mid range grunt. The one super custom thing I want to do is to place the M20 as far back as possible and I may customize thew firewall.

[achman]

To the OP:

Why do you think the pump and injectors need rebuilding? Generally if your Tii runs and idles decently, it is not the pump or the injectors. They are generally very durable and either work or they don't. More than likely it is one or a combination of things, fuel pump, dirty fuel filters, fuel tank pickup screen, low fuel pressure at inlet (29psi), wrong A/F mixture, incorrect lengths or too much play in linkages...all rather small and in retrospect cheap things to fix...just a little money, time and testing.

 

I love engine swaps (you should see my 914) but swapping EFI or a motor in a Tii definitely has financial implications. You may not care about that, and who am I to say, I don't know the condition of your car...but Tii's are appreciating, and if it were me, I would keep it stock. Not many people have had as much undiagnosable trauma with a Tii as me, but thanks to Rob Siegel, the Hack Mechanic, I now know the joys of driving a stock Tii as nature intended, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

My advice is, get the car figured out as it is supposed to be, experience that, and see if you like it. It is easy to hate on a car that doesn't work as it should...but straightening the car out, stock, in the long run will always be way cheaper than an engine swap etc.

[bluedevils]

How about a MS EFI conversion using an early "log style" e21 intake manifold? If done properly it can be made to look much like a tii engine bay. So much so that it would take a good eye to spot the differences and there are a lot of performance mods that can be done within those confines. 

 

You can keep everything such that it could be swapped back and turned back into the original engine/car easily. Parts of the e21 engine harness can be plugged into the tii and then spliced so the tii harness can be kept unmolested. The early e21 log intake manifold will bolt directly onto your tii head without any modifications. 

Will require more work than 318i manifold, e.g., fuel rail will not fit directly. E30 325i TB will not fit easily between the runners, even with 02again adopter unless you use the 318i's smaller TB, or something else (e.g, from a Honda civic), or fabricate and extension tube. Easiest route is to use  318i L-jet  or late E21 K-jet manifold with 02again adopter. I have done both and speaking from my own experience. 

[winstontj]

That sounds intense compared to what I'm looking for, but fun. I'm more of a hop in and take a cruise up the coast or quiet mountain roads, you know? And I'd like to be able to take occasional long road trips around the Pacific Northwest.

I'm split between MS w/ e21 parts or an M20 swap. I may even go with the MS e21 combo and eventually upgrade to an M20 if it still interests me, since I'll already have the MS set up.

 

 

Rooncicle, unless your car is a total rust bucket I would NOT hack up any tii with an M20 swap. You need to use a BFH (big hammer) on the transmission tunnel just to persuade an M10 5-speed OD box to fit into a 2002... and the spot you need to bang out is exactly where your little toe is on your right foot, so unless you do it properly (either bang out the metal exactly the right amount and thin/remove the sound deadening under the carpet in that spot... or spend some $$ on a few other mods) every time you put your foot on the gas pedal you'll rub your shoe up against the side of the tunnel and be reminded that the car is not perfect; as well as start burning through shoes. 

 

The M20 gearboxes are not much different size at the flywheel and in overall length however they are much more stout/robust in the mid section and often require the firewall and transmission tunnel to be completely cut out and reworked. That negates any chance of ever bringing your car back to a tii state. Also, while M20's are very fun, look at what Paul Cain had to do to achieve a 50/50 balance (I know he didn't use an M20) after he shoved more pistons in his 2002. The M20 makes it very front/nose heavy and changes the handling characteristics. You'll make use of every bit of your tii wheel bearings and need front springs with a higher spring rate, etc. You are building a completely different car that will be fast in a straight line but handle nothing like an M10/S14 2002. That's not just my $0.02, the weight differences and M20 swaps are fairly well documented. (FYI, I have a 1970 roundie (with a sunroof and lots of rust) and an awesome M20B25 with low-mile gearbox & subframe as well as M20b27 crank and stroker bits that I'll be happy to trade you for your tii if you are sold on an m20 swap.) 

 

If you go back and look at my posting history I've been kicking tires and researching/talking about upgrading a 2002 for a decent 5-7 years. In all that time I've never considered an M20 because of the weight and how it changes the handling. 

 

Today, (I'm a moving target and I'll probably feel differently in 5 minutes) I'm thinking that my best bang-for-the-buck is exactly what I suggested to you earlier. Build a stroked M10 and run MS with the early e21 intake manifold. 

 

A couple things you need to consider with swaps are:

 

(if you care) The permanent changes/mods you'll need to do to the car (chassis, engine, etc.) that cannot be undone. Meaning the engine may give you the power you want but at the expense of a custom firewall/transmission tunnel --which also means problems with the heaterbox and therefore either no heat or lots of $$ for a custom solution) or something else you may overlook... Someone on this forum sent/sold me a complete tii wire harness a few years back so I could duplicate parts of it (lengths & bends) for the early e21 manifold swap... Someone recently made me an offer to buy it that I thought was stupid money so I said yes. He went through the loom and found that two wires had been cut and one had been spliced at some point --and was no longer interested. There is a lot more involved with a swap than you realize. 

 

The reason why people turbo M10's or why the S14 is the holy grail --The swap may give you the inexpensive horsepower number you are after but the changes in weight and handling will most probably force you to materially change the car and/or spend uber amounts of money to get the handling back to where you want it. (Now that you have an M20 you have a lot more weight and power, which means you need to be able to stop, coilovers plus uprated springs aren't free). 

 

Money. I can't give away the M20 motors I have sitting in the garage while at the same time I have more people emailing and sending me PMs about CR gearboxes or S14's than I have time to properly respond to. I guess I should thank you for your post because you have allowed me to come to a decision --If I can afford it I'll do an S14 swap and if the money isn't there I'll stroke an M10 and probably be just as happy. The sayings "you get what you pay for" and "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is", are spot on. Going the M20 route for cheap power is exactly as it sounds, cheap power (hope that does not offend anyone, just my opinion). 

 

I have to get back to work so the last thing I'll say is that very (very) few people have truly driven a proper 2002. I'd venture to guess that 99% (or more) of today's 2002 owners/drivers/enthusiasts have never driven a 2002 (or tii) that is remotely close to the condition it was in the day it was purchased from the dealer. A few years back the first thing that the experienced members/owners said to me was to slow down and focus on the little things like brakes and suspension before I went looking for power. One of the best things I ever did to my 1974 2002 was suspension, bushings/bearings and brakes. I mean replace 30+ year old parts with new, stock parts. The car handled like a completely different car, how a 2002 was designed to handle. You are in a little different boat because you think you have KF issues but I'd still remind you that a well maintained, stock 2002 is an amazing car as-is. A stock car with stock suspension, e21 drums and tii or volvo front brakes with a mild cam, exhaust, and 38/38 carb is a REALLY fun car. 

 

After reading through this thread again I'd say stick with the tii/m10. You can pick up a used m10 for next to nothing these days (I can't sell the 3 I have for sale) and the tii is where its at in terms of collectors and value. Don't molest your car in any way that can't be reverted back to stock. Because the K-Fish is so tricky and expensive, you will probably find it will be almost the same cost to pick up an old/junk 2.0L e21 long block and 5spd gearbox and build that into a stroked 2.3-2.5L EFI motor than rebuild your tii & KF. These things are easy to work on. I'd yank your tii motor and 4-spd gearbox and shove it in a corner of the garage. Do the research so you know what you are doing/what you want --but I'd build the motor so that it was at least square (bore vs. stroke), or if anything, shorter stroke than bore (engine will rev better). There are a couple of mods to things that can be done so that you don't need to take a hammer to the transmission tunnel to fit an e21 5-spd OD gearbox in there. You can end up with a reliable 150-180 hp 2.3-2.5L 5-speed 2002 somewhat on the cheap and also keep/maintain the resale value of your tii. Or at least the ability to put it back to a proper tii. 

[vinceg14]

After reading through this thread again I'd say stick with the tii/m10. You can pick up a used m10 for next to nothing these days (I can't sell the 3 I have for sale) and the tii is where its at in terms of collectors and value. Don't molest your car in any way that can't be reverted back to stock. Because the K-Fish is so tricky and expensive, you will probably find it will be almost the same cost to pick up an old/junk 2.0L e21 long block and 5spd gearbox and build that into a stroked 2.3-2.5L EFI motor than rebuild your tii & KF. These things are easy to work on. I'd yank your tii motor and 4-spd gearbox and shove it in a corner of the garage. Do the research so you know what you are doing/what you want --but I'd build the motor so that it was at least square (bore vs. stroke), or if anything, shorter stroke than bore (engine will rev better). There are a couple of mods to things that can be done so that you don't need to take a hammer to the transmission tunnel to fit an e21 5-spd OD gearbox in there. You can end up with a reliable 150-180 hp 2.3-2.5L 5-speed 2002 somewhat on the cheap and also keep/maintain the resale value of your tii. Or at least the ability to put it back to a proper tii. 

 

I too believe a inline 4 would be a great choice and would consider it if the 180 BHP was reliable. That crank in a stroked 2.5 motor is spendy. I am open to here a detailed information on a 180 HP. What compression ratio would that be? Are we talking custom pistons? How much work will need to be done to the head and what would you expect the longevity to be? Not fabricating and problem solving a swap engine is a positive. 

[tomphot]

Excellent post Winstontj

I'm Very new to this game so hesitate to chime in as I just bought my '72 Tii this year and am in the learning process. I'm the 4th owner, when I bought the car from a short term owner who had bought the car from a 30+ year owner, it wouldn't hold idle at idle at all and generally didn't run very well. The reputable place he had brought it to after it had been sitting for about 10 years told him he may need to consider switching over to carbs to get it to run right.

When I bought the car, I started down the road of making it right. Long story short, warm up regulator need to be rebuilt, then all the linkages needed readjusting as well as the Verboten screw and a new cold start relay as previous mechanics had messed them all to try to compensate.

I'm lucky to have a local mechanic who primarily works for a huge collector of various cars and has been my 356 guy. He went through my Tii and it now runs like a champ, he says one of the best he's driven and he owned them in the '70s.

Don't give up on it! Spend a lot of time reading and studying, it can be done.

[Rooncicle]

Will require more work than 318i manifold, e.g., fuel rail will not fit directly. E30 325i TB will not fit easily between the runners, even with 02again adopter unless you use the 318i's smaller TB, or something else (e.g, from a Honda civic), or fabricate and extension tube. Easiest route is to use  318i L-jet  or late E21 K-jet manifold with 02again adopter. I have done both and speaking from my own experience. 

 

I should probably say that I have a spare M10 and KF (mentioned it in the first post, but this is getting long.) So I could pull the pump I have now, mod the current M10 and rebuild/install the spare M10 if/when I want to go back. So maybe MS w/ 318i manifold is a good way to go. It seems fairly straight forward, at least from some of the conversion threads I've seen. (They were carb to EFI, though.)

Edited November 28, 2015 by Rooncicle

[Rooncicle]

Rooncicle, unless your car is a total rust bucket I would NOT hack up any tii with an M20 swap. You need to use a BFH (big hammer) on the transmission tunnel just to persuade an M10 5-speed OD box to fit into a 2002... and the spot you need to bang out is exactly where your little toe is on your right foot, so unless you do it properly (either bang out the metal exactly the right amount and thin/remove the sound deadening under the carpet in that spot... or spend some $$ on a few other mods) every time you put your foot on the gas pedal you'll rub your shoe up against the side of the tunnel and be reminded that the car is not perfect; as well as start burning through shoes. 

 

Thanks for all the great input, winstontj. You've convinced me to forego the M20 and do something fun to my current M10. (As I mentioned above, I can have my spare M10 restored and install that with one of the two KF pumps I have.

 

The PO installed a 5-speed tranny, LSD, so those are already a reality for me. 

 

I'm considering going with Megasquirt, but I may upgrade the KF linkages in the short term to see how much of a difference that makes. That will at least give me time to do extensive research, see what shakes out, and allow me to drive my car in the meantime.

[Rooncicle]

To the OP:

Why do you think the pump and injectors need rebuilding? Generally if your Tii runs and idles decently, it is not the pump or the injectors. They are generally very durable and either work or they don't. More than likely it is one or a combination of things, fuel pump, dirty fuel filters, fuel tank pickup screen, low fuel pressure at inlet (29psi), wrong A/F mixture, incorrect lengths or too much play in linkages...all rather small and in retrospect cheap things to fix...just a little money, time and testing.

 

I love engine swaps (you should see my 914) but swapping EFI or a motor in a Tii definitely has financial implications. You may not care about that, and who am I to say, I don't know the condition of your car...but Tii's are appreciating, and if it were me, I would keep it stock. Not many people have had as much undiagnosable trauma with a Tii as me, but thanks to Rob Siegel, the Hack Mechanic, I now know the joys of driving a stock Tii as nature intended, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

My advice is, get the car figured out as it is supposed to be, experience that, and see if you like it. It is easy to hate on a car that doesn't work as it should...but straightening the car out, stock, in the long run will always be way cheaper than an engine swap etc.

 

That's what the mechanic suspected, though the KF tuning procedure - even without the linkage adjustments - made a huge difference. I guess I'm just spooked at the moment, knowing how much it takes to repair these pumps. But there's lots of posts saying how robust and reliable these pumps are, so maybe I just need to cool my heals.

 

So in the short term, I'm going to replace the linkages with the pre-measured, metal ones from JF Pro and see how much that helps. I replaced the fuel pump, fuel filters, plugs/wires, it has Pertronix installed, the gas tank doesn't have any rust and the pickup isn't plugged. So, linkages first, replace all fuel lines - though I'll check the pressure before the KF pump (it was 29 immediately after the fuel pump, but I didn't check further down the line) - re-time it and run through the tuning procedures again and maybe upgrade the suspension. Based on what longtime tii owners are saying, I really need to experience a superbly running tii to appreciate what kind of car it can be.

[achman]

That's what the mechanic suspected, though the KF tuning procedure - even without the linkage adjustments - made a huge difference. I guess I'm just spooked at the moment, knowing how much it takes to repair these pumps. But there's lots of posts saying how robust and reliable these pumps are, so maybe I just need to cool my heals.

 

So in the short term, I'm going to replace the linkages with the pre-measured, metal ones from JF Pro and see how much that helps. I replaced the fuel pump, fuel filters, plugs/wires, it has Pertronix installed, the gas tank doesn't have any rust and the pickup isn't plugged. So, linkages first, replace all fuel lines - though I'll check the pressure before the KF pump (it was 29 immediately after the fuel pump, but I didn't check further down the line) - re-time it and run through the tuning procedures again and maybe upgrade the suspension. Based on what longtime tii owners are saying, I really need to experience a superbly running tii to appreciate what kind of car it can be.

My car never ran correctly until I took the Petronix out of it and re-installed points. Make sure you have the correct coil for points, and the correct resistor (or no resistor, depending)

Use only NGK BP5ES or BP6ES (non-resistor) spark plugs

Use the Blunt Non-resistor spark plug wires--you need all this non-resistor stuff so you have a hot enough spark--it helps with starting and running and not fouling your plugs.

These things are the final touches to make my car run as well as it does now. Make sure fuel pressure at inlet is 29psi.

 

Be weary of installing lowering springs, but do install Bilsteins on the rear of the car. Replace all bushings etc. (I will be this winter) and experience the magic roadholding and compliant behavior of a stock well-sorted Tii

[AceAndrew]

I'm sorry, but on a number of key things Winston is very wrong.

 

The weight of an M20 (with the battery in the rear) is within a couple pounds of an M10 w/ AC and a front battery (something plenty of us here have).  The VERY nose-heavy rhetoric is typically regurgitated by someone who simply doesn't know better.

 

If you do the swap correctly you end up using the SAME Getrag 245 as you'd use on an M10, only with the front section made for the M20.  It also is lighter than the getrag 260 that some use.  This I have also documented.  So modification to the trans tunnel is NO MORE than what you'd do with a standard 5-speed swap on an S14 or an M10.  If Winston is claiming that that he'd rather keep the standard 4-speed, then so be it.

 

To continue there are a number of us who have done the radiator so that NO or very little (hidden) cutting is done.  Shoot call up Tom over at Casey Motorsports, he's recently finished a completely (properly) BAR-legal 1976 M20-2002.

 

Ironically, you can actually save a fair amount of reciprocating weight over even the standard m20b25 if you go with a proper 2.9L stroker build.  Pair that with some decent tuning and you've got a 200whp package that'll last 200k and have an addicting snappy torque curve.

 

Yes, there are bad M20 (and s14, and M42, and etc.) swaps out there, but if done right, it's a very potent little beast with a zippy six.

Edited November 28, 2015 by AceAndrew

[winstontj]

I'm sorry, but on a number of key things Winston is very wrong.

 

The weight of an M20 (with the battery in the rear) is within a couple pounds of an M10 w/ AC and a front battery (something plenty of us here have).  The VERY nose-heavy is typically spewed by someone who simply doesn't know better.

 

If you do the swap correctly you end up using the SAME Getrag 245 as you'd use on an M10, only with the front section made for the M20.  It also is lighter than the getrag 260 that some use.  This I have also documented.  So modification to the trans tunnel is NO MORE than what you'd do with a standard 5-speed swap on an S14 or an M10.  If Winston is claiming that that he'd rather keep the standard 4-speed, then so be it.

 

To continue there are a number of us who have done the radiator so that NO or very little (hidden) cutting is done.  Shoot call up Tom over at Casey Motorsports, he's recently finished a completely (properly) BAR-legal 1976 M20-2002.

 

Ironically, you can actually save a fair amount of reciprocating weight over even the standard m20b25 if you go with a proper 2.9L stroker build.  Pair that with some decent tuning and you've got a 200whp package that'll last 200k.

 

Yes, there are bad M20 (and s14, and M42, and etc.) swaps out there, but if done right, it's a very potent little beast with a zippy six.

 

Andrew, I haven't been on this forum in a long time and I'm not about to come back and argue so I will try and keep it civil but you are out of line. Saying "spewed by someone who simply doesn't know better." is rude, insulting and extremely ignorant on your part. I know nothing about you and you know nothing about me. 

 

You are fudging your numbers and not comparing apples to apples. Reality is that when comparing equally featured/optioned M10 and  M20 cars, the M20 quickly becomes several hundred pounds heavier than the M10. You cannot compare an M10 with AC and a battery under the hood to an M20 with no AC (relocated battery goes without saying because there is no room for a battery under the hood with an M20 swap). This is the same as how you cannot compare the number of e21's produced with M10's vs. M20's (meaning a Getrag M20 245 vs. a Getrag M10 245). BTW, I have two M20 Getrag 245 gearboxes for sale, one OD and one dogleg. 

 

I'm not going to get into tit-for-tat details of an M20 swap into a 2002 other than to say I do not believe it to be possible to put an M20 into a tii and keep it in a state that it could be considered unmolested and returned back to its stock state. You mention cutting or "hidden cutting". Enough said. Do you factor in the weight savings of the metal you need to cut out from the chassis in your M10 vs. M20 pro/con list? How much does the front end of a 2002 weigh with an M20, AC and the battery under the hood vs. an M10 similarly optioned?

 

If you would like to compare apples to apples cars I am happy to contribute, if not please stop ignorantly responding and attacking others. 

 

 

 

I too believe a inline 4 would be a great choice and would consider it if the 180 BHP was reliable. That crank in a stroked 2.5 motor is spendy. I am open to here a detailed information on a 180 HP. What compression ratio would that be? Are we talking custom pistons? How much work will need to be done to the head and what would you expect the longevity to be? Not fabricating and problem solving a swap engine is a positive. 

 

Your sarcasm, rhetoric and mis-spellings/grammar mistakes are disgusting and rude. 

 

 

I too believe a inline 4 would be a great choice and would consider it if the 180 BHP was reliable.

 

Reliable 180hp or even 180whp out of a stroked M10 is absolutely achievable. Who said it wasn't?

 

That crank in a stroked 2.5 motor is spendy.

 

I cannot respond as I do not fully understand your vernacular. 

 

 

I am open to here a detailed information on a 180 HP.

 

I as well am always open to HEAR detailed information on a "180 HP."

 

 

What compression ratio would that be?

 

Depends on what your goals are. I would suggest doing research and mating your CR to your build. 

 

 

 

Are we talking custom pistons? 

 

I didn't think so, are we?

 

 

 

How much work will need to be done to the head and what would you expect the longevity to be?

 

That all depends on your goals as well as how the engine is used/driven.

 

 

Not fabricating and problem solving a swap engine is a positive. 

 

I think I agree with this but I am not sure I understand your English.

 

 

I would like to thank you AceAndrew for ruining a wonderful thread. 

[AceAndrew]

I have been fortunate enough to drive 2002's of many varieties and supplying-parts-for-while-assisting literally hundreds more. Aside from my own preferences, I get to hear first hand feedback from all sorts of 2002 projects literally every day. Some time ago I learned that propping up any idea by attempting to tear down a different view was not in anyones best interest. Your methodology follows that manner and that is what initially irked me.

 

Much of what you said about the M20 swap does reflect a simply lack of first hand experience and just reflects old regurgitated fallacies.  I get that in the past you may have been used to seeing people do the swap simply because it was a cheap source of power, BUT you need to realize that there have been a number of very well respected shops/people who are putting together fantastically capable M20'02 swaps together.

 

Your main argument for the M20 was weight, so I simply believe that the argument of comparing an M10 in ANY form is valid (Are you then very opposed to a similar-weighing 2002 with AC equipped, since it's handling would be equally as compromised?). As for cutting.... YES, in your absence it has been proven that the swap can be done completely without cutting (again, see my reference in the first response).

 

All this being considered, your first argument was out of line and is what spoiled the thread, i certainly kept the ball rolling though. The idea that your one train of thought is the only correct one is laughable but understandable. Ironically, one of my current projects IS putting together a number of street-stroker m10 kits and if you have a couple M20 245's to get sell I'd be happy to get the details to pass them on.

Edited November 28, 2015 by AceAndrew