Sudden clutch / flywheel chatter noise

[Mucci]

Alright, I guess I'm going to bite the bullet here and pull the trans to assess and likely change the pilot bearing.

Here's my "while I'm in there" list:

- 242 Elring gasket & seal kit
- Rear main seal...since every other seal on this motor is leaking I'm going to guess this one is too.
- 215mm Sachs clutch kit (dic, pressure plate, TO bearing, and alignment tool)

Anything I'm not considering and should be? All the driveshaft rubber & bearings are new. Shifter and shift plate bushings are new too.

[jimk]

10 hours ago, Mucci said:

Alright, I guess I'm going to bite the bullet here and pull the trans to assess and likely change the pilot bearing

For sure change it when the transmission is out, but it isn't the problem.  Gear box is ready to crash.

[Mucci]

3 minutes ago, jimk said:

For sure change it when the transmission is out, but it isn't the problem.  Gear box is ready to crash.

What do you mean?

[John76]

The transmission Input Shaft Bearing is the one you don't want to fail!  This will result in a gear box crash....$$$$$

The other two:

Pilot Bearing, no big deal...noisy and annoying, but won't leave you stranded.

Clutch Release Bearing. Slightly bigger deal, but still not critical.

Be sure to lube the input shaft splines when re-installing the tranny.

 

 

[Mucci]

Ok I'm getting confused on which bearings are which. In RealOEM they're all called "bearing". 

#5 below is a "4spd transmission bearing kit"

that looks  like  this when i google the PN:

 

Which bearings are included there?

And here's another diagram with bearings from RealOEM:

[stephers]

You better get a rear seal housing gasket as well, pull the housing off and replace the seal in the housing, then put it on.    I would not buy any bearing kit until the gearbox is out and has come apart.     You may find it will be cheaper to pick up a good used box  or time to move to a 5 speed   I really have my doubts that the pilot shaft bearing is bad but would replace it anyways while everything is apart

[tech71]

1 hour ago, Mucci said:

Ok I'm getting confused on which bearings are which.

#5 is the pic and location of the input shaft bearing.

Dont buy any bearings or parts until the trans is out and you can see what's going on.

If your transmission is damaged, a used 4 speed is probably a faster, cheaper, easier solution.

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by tech71

[tech71]

1 hour ago, Mucci said:

Which bearings are included there?

Looks like a kit containing input/output shaft and 2 ea countershaft bearings.

It is possible to replace the input shaft bearing without opening the trans.

Again, get the trans out and determine what is actually wrong before buying anything.

[Mucci]

Alright transmission is extracted. 
What am I looking for here / what kind of checks should I do?

The whole thing was black with leakage everywhere. Took me a couple hours to clean it up. As expected the rear main is leaking. 1.5in or so rubber plug near the transmission input shaft also looked like it was leaking. 
 

[2002iii]

Yep input bearing is shot, shouldn't obe able to wiggle the input shaft that much. Time for a rebuild or a new transmission.

 

The flywheel looks horrible and the pressure plate isn't much better. Look's like the rear main seal was leaking oil onto the clutch.

[Son of Marty]

Yeah all that ahead of the trans should be replaced including the pilot bearing unless you really like droping the trans, the input bearing needs to be renewed and the rest of the trans has the same miles on it so if you do it do it all, or find a 5 speed before there all gone,

[Mucci]

Could the flywheel just be resurfaced instead of replaced?

Edited November 4, 2021 by Mucci

[tech71]

Don’t just wiggle the input shaft, turn it as well. What do you feel?

Binding/roughness/ratcheting? 
Also did you see any shiny bits in the trans oil you drained out?

How much oil actually drained out?

If it ran dry, it  most likely will require more than an input bearing.

You have some work in front of you, I would start by replacing that leaky rear main seal in the engine and having your flywheel turned or replaced as required.
Is that pitting in it or just hot spots?

The pilot bearing is installed in the crankshaft under the little round cover, it supports the front of the input shaft. There are a few different styles and they can be a challenge to get out but definitely change it too.

Regarding your trans, I don’t know your experience level /facilities etc 

I myself have many years experience on cars and flying machines, I used to overhaul helicopter gearboxes for a living and I would not attempt to overhaul  a transmission my self. I would take to someone who specialized in them. There’s folks like that down there in Cali.

They have the tools, facilities and knowledge  necessary.

Theres more going on in there than the 4 bearings you posted pics of.

Major rabbit hole, sorry?

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by tech71

[Mucci]

9 hours ago, tech71 said:

Don’t just wiggle the input shaft, turn it as well. What do you feel?

Binding/roughness/ratcheting? 
Also did you see any shiny bits in the trans oil you drained out?

How much oil actually drained out?

If it ran dry, it  most likely will require more than an input bearing.

You have some work in front of you, I would start by replacing that leaky rear main seal in the engine and having your flywheel turned or replaced as required.
Is that pitting in it or just hot spots?

The pilot bearing is installed in the crankshaft under the little round cover, it supports the front of the input shaft. There are a few different styles and they can be a challenge to get out but definitely change it too.

Regarding your trans, I don’t know your experience level /facilities etc 

I myself have many years experience on cars and flying machines, I used to overhaul helicopter gearboxes for a living and I would not attempt to overhaul  a transmission my self. I would take to someone who specialized in them. There’s folks like that down there in Cali.

They have the tools, facilities and knowledge  necessary.

Theres more going on in there than the 4 bearings you posted pics of.

Major rabbit hole, sorry?

Well if it comes down to a total rebuild I doubt I'll stick with this transmission but I'd like to know how to further assess it. I've rebuilt a few motorcycle gearboxes, and many moto engines, so I'm comfortable cracking it open for inspection if that's the only way to assess it.

When I turn the input shaft I don't feel any binding or roughness. It rotates smoothly. I can hear what sounds like gear teeth meshing ...or maybe a clacking bearing? It sounds similar to the noise I was hearing at idle. I'll take a video when I get back to the garage.

Unfortunately I didn't measure the oil that came out but it was a significant amount. At least 1L I'd say if not mostly full. Luckily most of the leaks appeared to be seepage leaks and not "leaving a puddle" leaks.

[tzei]

10 hours ago, Mucci said:

Could the flywheel just be resurfaced instead of replaced?

Yes. Drive dowel pins off. Take same amount of material from the pressure plate mating surface as has been moved from the friction surface - > same initial pressure for disc.

 

Oh and that disc is dead but this you already knew.