How to spot a changed VIN

[Henning]

1 hour ago, Conserv said:

In addition, the early cars, such as the '68's, lack an extra factory "wrinkle" running laterally across the front inner fenders, designed to promote controlled collapse in the event of a frontal accident.

 

That's it. Thank you, Steve, for stating the needed vocabulary to me.

Here are pics of a '68 engine bay:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/1968-BMW-2002/224347722296?hash=item343c2a9238%3Ag%3Aa1gAAOSwvypgJJAY&LH_ItemCondition=3000

You might compare.

What I could mention: the "mice holes" (where the wiring harness is running through on the left side of the car to the fuse box) are smaller on a '66 to '71 car than later ones. The fuse box itself is easily integrated by a skillful welder, bondoer and painter. That's not a clue. And anything else (belts, lights, gauges etc. etc. also aren't since they are replacable quickly.

Try to get some pics especially of the engine bay, odrut. Have a look at the fuel filler neck.

 

Mike, don't you have both versions in your yard? May we send you out for a check?

 

h

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Henning

[Lorin]

2 hours ago, Conserv said:

I would wager that most of these changes were made based on the easy availablity of these parts. In other words, they were cheap and plentiful. No one cared much about maintaining originality from about 1975 to, well, today. If it has a 6-fuse fuseholder near the rear of the left inner fender, as mentioned above, and no 4-slot relay rack near the front of the left inner fender, its a 1968. In addition, the early cars, such as the '68's, lack an extra factory "wrinkle" running laterally across the front inner fenders, designed to promote controlled collapse in the event of a frontal accident.

 

In the '70's, many of us were adding knee trim to our old '02's, in an effort to modernize them. And, although no one else here will admit it today, some of us -- uh... that would be me! -- thought that the square taillight front and rear panels improved the looks of the cars! Shame on me!

 

A few photos under the hood, in the luggage compartment, and in the passenger compartment, would allow us to give you lots of advice!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

So many early 911s got the same modernizing treatment when impact bumpers came out as well. 
 

I agree that checking the main chassis for details is the way to go. Another place to look at is the fuel filler neck attachment inside the quarter panel. 
 

Bumper shocks mount in a completely different way in the frame rails and trunk   than the earlier metal brackets if that hasn’t been mentioned yet. 

[Mike Self]

Couple of things on "real" '68 cars that won't be on later ones.  

• between the round horn relay and the brake fluid reservoir on the driver's side inner fender panel there should be a small hole--that's to mount the identical-to-the-horn-relay, relay for optional fog lights.  
• A 3 piece dashboard (upper, lower, instrument binnacle), and the plastic instrument surround has two screws on its upper edge; they're not present on later cars.
• No shoulder harness mounts in the C pillars
• The tips of the trunk lid torsion bars have little plastic caps on 'em
• The brake fluid reservoir would be mounted directly on the master cylinder
• The fluid reservoir for the clutch would be mounted on the left side firewall--or there should be evidence of it having been there)
• Multi-piece carpets, not one piece
• Seat fore & aft adjuster is on the seat, not on the filler panel between the sill and seat as on later cars
• Clutch return spring is a coil spring stretched between a bracket on the pedal arm and the upper portion of the pedal bucket, not the helical one that's wrapped around the pedal shaft and the base of the pedal arm.  

Some of the above items are pretty obscure and it's unlikely that someone trying to make a later car look like an early one would either (1) know the difference or (2) go to the trouble of making the change.  

 

Hope that helps.

mike

[NickVyse]

8 hours ago, AceAndrew said:

Bring a mirror and look at the sheet metal surrounding the stamped vin on the fender underside.  A couple years ago I looked over an imported Tii in a popular color from a well known European restorer, the vin was swapped via sheet metal grafted in.  The top metal was ground flush, but the welding was visible from underneath.

 

Best of luck.

 

yeah, I've seen a couple of VIN swapped cars where they've not properly finished off the weld/join underneath. Could spot it from just running your fingers underneath the lip of the inner wing where it's stamped and feeling the two joins either end of the number.

 

But as Steve says the top top of the inner wing stamping is the obvious giveaway between a '68 and a later car - if it's had an impact that required both inner wings to be replaced then I wouldn't want the car anyway!

[S00S odrut]

That inner fender difference looks like a good evidence. I can't remember which fenders the car has so I'll have to check that.

I'll also check all the other details you mentioned.

I found another post about the hood differences which are visible from the inside. Would a front panel change require a hood change too?

 

[Lorin]

Plot Twist:

 

The original poster is actually trying to build a counterfeit car and wants to make sure he has all the bases covered. 
 

 

 

 

Just Kidding, I think. 

[Conserv]

I’d just like to emphasize that the number of VIN-altered ‘02’s is tiny. But the number of ‘02’s with swapped nosepieces, and even swapped rear panels, is huge.

 

These are not Ferrari’s — or even 911’s. Their value over much of the last forty years has generally been measured in hundreds of dollars (or “other-currency” equivalents), or maybe a few thousand, not tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Thus: (a.) there’s been little incentive to swap VIN’s and create “new” or “more valuable” ‘02’s, while, simultaneously, (b.) an ‘02’s originality has been of little importance and cheap repair parts have been a necessity — because of the cars’ low values.

Stated differently, the sins visited on ‘02’s are much more likely to be sins of (1.) practicality, accident, and indifference rather than (2.) criminal intent. It’s good to know what you’re buying. But don’t overthink the likelihood of a swapped VIN!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

[S00S odrut]

I contacted with the seller and eventually the inner fenders are the old ones without the vertical wrinkles, so that is a good sign. I'll do some more checks just to be on the safe side.

About a 50% of the 02s I see on sale or driving around here have at least changed rear lights/ front grills or both. In this particular case everything was changed so I was a bit worried.

[conkitchen]

46 minutes ago, Conserv said:

I’d just like to emphasize that the number of VIN-altered ‘02’s is tiny. But the number of ‘02’s with swapped nosepieces, and even swapped rear panels, is huge.

 

These are not Ferrari’s — or even 911’s. Their value over much of the last forty years has generally been measured in hundreds of dollars (or “other-currency” equivalents), or maybe a few thousand, not tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Thus: (a.) there’s been little incentive to swap VIN’s and create “new” or “more valuable” ‘02’s, while, simultaneously, (b.) an ‘02’s originality has been of little importance and cheap repair parts have been a necessity — because of the cars’ low values.

Stated differently, the sins visited on ‘02’s are much more likely to be sins of (1.) practicality and accident rather than of (2.) criminal intent. Still, it’s good to know what you’re buying.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

While so many e10's over their life span has had nearly 99% of their born with items replaced. Whatever the reason. These past 50 years, some cars could only live-on if they become donors for another.   People get so upiddy about that last 1% which is a 3 inch piece of sheet metal with scribblings on them but say nothing about having the entire floor pan, doors, body panels, and even the roof switched to a sunroof, and especially the nose replaced.  Of course the assumption is that a vin swap was performed under some nefarious pretense. There was a Polaris 72 tii that had been 100% restored. Originally it was so rusty, the only original part used during the resto was the window frame and front fire wall section.  Performed at a cost of $100K. All just to keep the car original and not swap the vin section. That is the length some will go for a tii, fine, but really with plane jane ordinary non-historical e10s what's the big deal.  Oh right, investment dollars.  

Now I'm not saying that we should all go out and just swap vin tags for whatever the reason. If you don't have to it should not be done. The fact remains, for some cars it makes sense due to the extent and cost to restore.   

 

But what do I know.  

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by conkitchen

[TobyB]

I wholeheartedly agree-

if the car's in nice shape, you like it

 

and free and clear of all legal challenge, personally

I'd rather see a solid original shell (with all the factory seams)

than care much about that stamping on the inner fender.

As long, of course, as I had some confidence that I wasn't 

buying something shady...

 

("I bought 2 cars, and the nice shell was a '76.  But I was living in Yreka at the time

so I 'restored' the 74 VIN with the shell of the 76, and viola, my life was complete" for example)

 

But it's all personal preference and confidence level-

I drove a 'salvaged' E36 for years, and I never really

considered it a 'long term' car, even though it was

'salvaged' far less badly than the ti I got

from Jim...

 

t

get out of the manure spreader, we need the poo!

 

[kbmb02]

Keeping in mind, swapping a VIN is fraudulent and/or a felony (depending on state). Motivations aside, consider the unexpected costs and grief for a purchaser of a VIN-swapped 2002, if swap was not revealed. -KB

[conkitchen]

1 minute ago, kbmb02 said:

Keeping in mind, swapping a VIN is fraudulent and/or a felony (depending on state). Motivations aside, consider the unexpected costs and grief for a purchaser of a VIN-swapped 2002, if swap was not revealed. -KB

Yes, most DMV's will provide a statement of fact form for this. However one could propose, the vin was not swapped but rather the other 99% of the car was replaced onto the 3" piece of original metal that was left.  

[Preyupy]

34 minutes ago, conkitchen said:

Yes, most DMV's will provide a statement of fact form for this. However one could propose, the vin was not swapped but rather the other 99% of the car was replaced onto the 3" piece of original metal that was left.  

This is my Great Grandfather's ax, it has had 3 new handles and 2 new blades but it is MY GREAT GRANDFATHER'S AX!

[TobyB]

3 hours ago, kbmb02 said:

Keeping in mind, swapping a VIN is fraudulent and/or a felony (depending on state). Motivations aside, consider the unexpected costs and grief for a purchaser of a VIN-swapped 2002, if swap was not revealed. -KB

 

If a tree falls in a forest, kills no- one, and nobody even notices, does that affect your carbon buttprint?

 

I totally agree that cutting 2 cars in half and welding the good bits into one and selling it as something 'Grandma only drove on Sundays'

is evil and should be punished.

But when the car's 50 years old, anyone who buys into that story...  well...  ok, yeah, suuuurreee, here, you can borrow my mustache wax.

 

t

what I'm saying, here, is don't buy a car from me, right?

[Conserv]

3 hours ago, Preyupy said:

This is my Great Grandfather's ax, it has had 3 new handles and 2 new blades but it is MY GREAT GRANDFATHER'S AX!

+1

 

That’s the saying I grew up with!

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Steve