300 HP, How to Assemble Our Engines Engine Builders Chime In

[2002iii]

I'm sorry if I offended you, I'm not upset at you, I 'm only trying to be realistic. There's a big difference between aftermarket bearings and Honda bearings. 

 

If you were going to rip the s14 out and put other engines in why did you ruin 2 e30 m3s? Instead of buy a regular e30 and getting a m3 body kit. You obviously have lots of money to spend and don't care about originality. 

 

I will have a good night thank you.

[Benjamin A.R.]

On 1/13/2021 at 7:08 PM, gary32 said:

I would think a 4 valve head on a stout 2 liter M10 lower end might move the quantity of air you need.

@2002iii He edited that comment, this is what he was saying initially. @gary32 maybe it was a mistake, but gotta kill misinformation. 

 

1. There's no 16v ("4v") head that bolts to the M10 bottom end with the exception of the unobtainable OG motorsport stuff we were discussing. There's one dude on this forum who was in the process of making reproductions, I haven't checked on his thread in a while. 

 

2. I don't think @evil02 was disrespecting the S14. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's saying there's no real, technical reason it should command such a premium over its Japanese competition from the era. He's right in my opinion. I could build about 4 turbo M10s for the cost of 1 ground-up NA S14. There was a time when S14 swaps made sense but that time has passed in my opinion.

 

3.  Personally, the reason I don't like the M42/M44 platforms is the same reason I don't like the E30 M10 blocks... If I put a Cummins turbocharger on a 200k mile M42, rammed 10psi into it, street tuned it (poorly at times), then tried to smack the limiter consistently for about 10k miles... the thing would eat itself on the 2nd pull I'd bet money. My bone stock '75 took all of that in stride. There's not a thing wrong with that engine except normal wear from the high mileage, and it's going to get built in the future using lessons I learn from the motor I just assembled.

 

4. If all we care about is the dollar to horsepower ratio, we'd all be running Honda F/K or SR20s or cramming in LSs (except the real racers amongst us like Toby). I'm just saying the "right" amount of power to have insane fun in an 02 is locked inside the engine it came with. Just add boost and even sorta modern management.

[Benjamin A.R.]

@evil02 my biggest question for you is when you're doing all this undercutting, how are you nitriding the journals again? I think that's part of the reason early BMW cranks are so f-in tough. I see the logic of less surface area more power, but I can't help but think that most everything can be overcome with more boost. Maybe I'm wrong and Honda really has that golden ratio, but still big bearings can handle more so just feed em more to overcome? I don't know.

[Benjamin A.R.]

Please no flamewars guys, pretty please, just once

 

Please

 

Genuinely please

 

We're all on the same team trying  to learn

Edited January 21, 2021 by Benjamin A.R.

[Benjamin A.R.]

As a peace offering for the thread, I dug up the 16v reproduction topic I mentioned: 

I saw the comment I made on here 4 years ago, about missing out on a 1.5l block and got depressed about it all over again.

 

 

[tzei]

Ridgeway makes repro 16v heads but one needs to get cam carriers & covers somehow (hand deep into pocket).

 

https://www.ridgewayraceengines.co.uk/bmw-m12-parts

[Benjamin A.R.]

WOW this is insane I can't believe I hadn't seen this before.

[evil02]

11 hours ago, 2002iii said:

I'm sorry if I offended you, I'm not upset at you, I 'm only trying to be realistic. There's a big difference between aftermarket bearings and Honda bearings. 

 

If you were going to rip the s14 out and put other engines in why did you ruin 2 e30 m3s? Instead of buy a regular e30 and getting a m3 body kit. You obviously have lots of money to spend and don't care about originality. 

 

I will have a good night thank you.

 

 I understand your skepticism and it doesn't seem like I can ease your mind but, if you google Clevite or King Bearings, Like a Clevite 77 "P" or "H" bearing, you will see they are used in tons of high performance builds.

 

 Regarding Honda bearings and aftermarket bearings, the differences would only be what Honda specs for the loads, rpms and wear characteristics in their motors.  Aftermarket is probably pretty similar. Honda doesn't make their bearings but, they spec their F20/22 bearings to make 240hp and rev to 9,000 rpms (bone stock motor in a mass produced car) so, I would assume they know what they are doing.  I don't think there are any factory Honda rods with the same length as the m10 but, if their was, I would have zero problem using a factory Honda rod in a M10. The Acura NSK has titanium rods and thats a high revving v6, mass produced car/motor.

 

Regarding money, why does anyone do what they do?  If there were body kits that were good, I would consider an E30 but, the rear roof and pillars are something that when I last looked, they didn't have an answer for yet. That being said, you feel I ruined the E30 M3, I feel I made them into the car that I wanted. Here we are again, we disagree and that is ok.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by evil02
My spelling stinks..

[irdave]

I've had 3 s54 motors, they were pretty special.  And the whole bearing thing was literally just a bad batch of bearings- wasn't the oil, wasn't anything else.  2J, LS, K/F, 4AGE.  Lots of interesting solutions.  Suppose it really depends on the question.  Performance per dollar, maybe there are better answers than the s14.

 

The car I have now came with an s14.  For the time, it was special, but really it's just an engine.  Some people really like them, some people don't care.  It's ok.  For me, the engine characteristic meets my needs, so it's fine.  If I was starting over from nothing except my experience?  F20.  Because I come from moto probably.  Gimme a sequential while we're at it.

 

I've got a Colnago Master Light, too, with Record.  It's awesome.  It's flexy.  It's 20 pounds.  It's the only pretty thing I own.  It's all personal.  Is anything made in the last 20 years "better?"  Yeah, probably.  But I still enjoy it, so it's ok.  Do I think everyone needs to ride lugged steel?  No.  But they might enjoy it.  :)

 

Friend of mine likes to say,"Don't yuck another man's yum."  I have room in my world for all y'all to like what you like and drive what you want.

[evil02]

6 hours ago, Benjamin A.R. said:

@2002iii He edited that comment, this is what he was saying initially. @gary32 maybe it was a mistake, but gotta kill misinformation. 

 

1. There's no 16v ("4v") head that bolts to the M10 bottom end with the exception of the unobtainable OG motorsport stuff we were discussing. There's one dude on this forum who was in the process of making reproductions, I haven't checked on his thread in a while. 

 

2. I don't think @evil02 was disrespecting the S14. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's saying there's no real, technical reason it should command such a premium over its Japanese competition from the era. He's right in my opinion. I could build about 4 turbo M10s for the cost of 1 ground-up NA S14. There was a time when S14 swaps made sense but that time has passed in my opinion.

 

3.  Personally, the reason I don't like the M42/M44 platforms is the same reason I don't like the E30 M10 blocks... If I put a Cummins turbocharger on a 200k mile M42, rammed 10psi into it, street tuned it (poorly at times), then tried to smack the limiter consistently for about 10k miles... the thing would eat itself on the 2nd pull I'd bet money. My bone stock '75 took all of that in stride. There's not a thing wrong with that engine except normal wear from the high mileage, and it's going to get built in the future using lessons I learn from the motor I just assembled.

 

4. If all we care about is the dollar to horsepower ratio, we'd all be running Honda F/K or SR20s or cramming in LSs (except the real racers amongst us like Toby). I'm just saying the "right" amount of power to have insane fun in an 02 is locked inside the engine it came with. Just add boost and even sorta modern management.

 

  1. Thank you. Yes, at first it just said 16v, no mention of M42.  I am also not a fan of the m42/44 engine.  They can be built but, not my cup of tea.

 

2.  No disrespect to the S14 at all. I clearly stated it was a cool motor in it's era and ahead of it's time. I said, its performance in the E30 M3 did not excited ME. If anyone here has one and it is what they love than great. I am very happy for you. I like different things  

 

 Yes, you can build two pretty stout turbo M10's for the price of one S14. I mean the HP up top of a turbo S14 is pretty awesome but, not at the cost it takes to get there. The m10 will pull stumps out of your garden and that's fun too. Hell, I built a turbo K24 for about $5k(with the $1k price for the motor) and it was a beast.

 

  As far as crank work goes. There are two places I trust to re nitrite the cranks. If you google it, one of them comes up quick (Colorado)and they are one of the top crank makers and the other one is a small shop in So Cal but, he takes forever and I don't recommend new people to him. Lots of people can do it but, it's a matter of who do you trust.

 

As far as being respectful, I'm trying  

Edited January 21, 2021 by evil02

[gary32]

M10 with an s14 head or m42 both paths to a 16 valve head and better air flow.

M10 is reasonably strong with modification the s14 head works might be better for a big turbo. 

An m42 is a 30 year refresh of the M10 (opinion) and might be better for drivability and a well rounded driver. 

Not sure what a "Cummins turbo" is but I think Benjamin means a big turbo and I encourage him and everyone else.

 

My knowledge base is limited and 25 years old so I am not familiar with parts availability or current prices.

I loved my hot roded M10 and I enjoy driving friends cars 02 and M3 with all versions of the beautiful S14.

In 1998 I went from M10 to 13b hard to beat the velvety texture of a rotary. 

Be nice.

 

M42-Engine-Booklet.pdf

Edited January 21, 2021 by gary32

[uai]

5 hours ago, Benjamin A.R. said:

@evil02 my biggest question for you is when you're doing all this undercutting, how are you nitriding the journals again?

Nitriding / straightening / polishing is a standard procedure in engine building/crankshaft grinding.

But it's not a DIY job

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by uai

[jk16vturbo]

What about a 2002 and the latest greatest M5 motor stuffed between the shock towers?  Anybody know where I can find that 620 hp beast for cheap? 

[evil02]

12 minutes ago, jk16vturbo said:

What about a 2002 and the latest greatest M5 motor stuffed between the shock towers?  Anybody know where I can find that 620 hp beast for cheap? 

 

Now your talking! We are installing a S85 as we speak(into an E30 M3). Glorious exhaust note.

[jk16vturbo]

6 minutes ago, evil02 said:

 

Now your talking! We are installing a S85 as we speak(into an E30 M3). Glorious exhaust note.

How much room did you have to make between the strut towers?  I will have a spare '76 rusty shell left over after the '75 is complete and  I figured on finding a wrecked M5 with a six speed and modifying the floor panels to fit since they need to be replaced anyway.  I think the stock suspension may need to go as well.  Any thoughts on an upgrade?