300 HP, How to Assemble Our Engines Engine Builders Chime In

[2002iii]

Here is the build for the 1602 turbo in the first video. Its basically as close to an m12 f1 spec engine as you can get without the dual cam head.

 

engine specs: 

1.8i head (very special) intakeports welded and moved up 30mm, new valve seats, modified racing valves 48/39mm, steel motorsport rockers, old m10 motorsport camshaft, CrMo retainers, special race springs 72/135 @ 12mm, head flow almost -> 250cfm

stainless twin entry exhaust pipe with borg and warner 72mm turbo with 1.10 A/R, 3.5" exhaust pipe to rearaxle

h-profile motornord rods 144mm (modified for m10 bearings, instead of m5), modified oilmarks etc etc

racing bearings

special m10 oilpump with rotor from m30 30% more flow

modified oilpan

 

With that giant turbo made for a 5.9l Cummins turbo diesel its going to take a long time to spool up and when it does hold onto your helmet.

Edited January 12, 2021 by 2002iii

[Preyupy]

21 hours ago, Benjamin A.R. said:

 

Too late haha. The machinist I was working with said 110nm so that's what they got. I didn't notice anything odd, felt fine. Did 3 steps with a wait period in between. Under what circumstances did you find this occuring? It's such a tight fit I would think that the rocker shafts would provide enough support. 

When you are ready to take it apart the next time be prepared to drive the rocker shafts out with a big hammer.  
 

the problem is ARP gave you the torque number for maximum strength of the stud without thinking about the strength of the item that was being compressed.  It also tends to unload the gasket slightly in the middle of the head right where the gasket is thinnest between the cylinders.  

[gary32]

Benjamin I support your efforts and everyone here is a big fan of the 2002 and the M10.

But to ignore history, metallurgy and the advise of the forum may not give you your best result.

I remember turbo kits from Miller Norburn and my 2002 is fueled by a Motec so we all get it.

 

BMW's most significant engine didn't have six cylinders - Hagertywww.hagerty.com › media › magazine-features › bmws....webloc

[uai]

53 minutes ago, gary32 said:

Benjamin I support your efforts and everyone here is a big fan of the 2002 and the M10.

But to ignore history, metallurgy and the advise of the forum may not give you your best result.

I remember turbo kits from Miller Norburn and my 2002 is fueled by a Motec so we all get it.

this link works https://www.hagerty.com/media/magazine-features/bmws-most-significant-engine-didnt-have-six-cylinders/

but they write some crap - they didn't do their homework regarding the 4 valve Apfelbeck engines

Edited January 12, 2021 by uai

[kbmb02]

7 hours ago, Preyupy said:

When you are ready to take it apart the next time be prepared to drive the rocker shafts out with a big hammer.  
 

the problem is ARP gave you the torque number for maximum strength of the stud without thinking about the strength of the item that was being compressed.  It also tends to unload the gasket slightly in the middle of the head right where the gasket is thinnest between the cylinders.  

 

+1 .   Data point: I used ‘over-tightened’ ARP studs on an early (in-my-short-career) M10 build, and encountered head gasket failures - the head gasket was unloading in the middle, as @Preyupy describes. The phrase, “Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should” and/or “Just because someone sells it, doesn’t mean it’s good” comes to mind.

 

That said:I appreciate the OP’s adventurism, and that the M10 engine is his choice. -KB

Edited January 12, 2021 by kbmb02

[gary32]

3 hours ago, kbmb02 said:

The phrase, “Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should” and/or “Just because someone sells it, doesn’t mean it’s good” comes to mind.

That said:I appreciate the OP’s adventurism, and that the M10 engine is his choice. -KB

Just because someone says it's an upgrade or a hi performance part does not mean it is.

[Benjamin A.R.]

On 1/11/2021 at 8:17 PM, 2002iii said:

Here is the build for the 1602 turbo in the first video. Its basically as close to an m12 f1 spec engine as you can get without the dual cam head.

With that giant turbo made for a 5.9l Cummins turbo diesel its going to take a long time to spool up and when it does hold onto your helmet.

Yep Robert does some amazing stuff, I want to get my hands on a set of his rocker retainer collars they're art. Check out his company Dynotech.

Diesel turbos are the best. My truck has the 'ol VE injected 12 valve in it with a 2nd gen HX35. I'm on the hunt for an HE351CW for it... then someone brought to my attention that if I could adapt a controller for it, I could install an HE351VE...that would give me the power and egt drop of twins and the secondary function of an exhaust brake all in one unit. Don't even get me started on truck stuff.. The 2002 has an HX30 super. The thing spools hard at about 3,500. Bigger turbo just means gnarlier 2 step to get it whirling haha.

[Benjamin A.R.]

16 hours ago, kbmb02 said:

Data point: I used ‘over-tightened’ ARP studs on an early (in-my-short-career) M10 build, and encountered head gasket failures - the head gasket was unloading in the middle 

 

23 hours ago, Preyupy said:

The problem is ARP gave you the torque number for maximum strength of the stud without thinking about the strength of the item that was being compressed.  It also tends to unload the gasket slightly in the middle of the head right where the gasket is thinnest between the cylinders.  

 

That logic makes sense to me, thank you both for your input and constructive criticism. The machinist, who taught me what little I do know about this engine, built a naturally aspirated one that put down 240 on an engine dyno. That's why I'm taking his word on 80(1)ftlbs/110nm. Maybe next time I'll split the difference. I don't see any advantage in making changes to this particular engine now that it's done, but I'll make a note in my next video, for general purpose head stud use don't go for 90.

[Benjamin A.R.]

17 hours ago, uai said:

this link works https://www.hagerty.com/media/magazine-features/bmws-most-significant-engine-didnt-have-six-cylinders/

but they write some crap - they didn't do their homework regarding the 4 valve Apfelbeck engines

And they showed the wrong crank when talking about the early M10s. They at least got right that the M10 platform is the most historically significant. Plus it's an inspiring story of one mans engineering vision for an engine coming to fruition, saving a company, carrying people around the world, then surpassing what anyone thought was possible when its block was used in F1. 

[Benjamin A.R.]

13 hours ago, gary32 said:

Just because someone says it's an upgrade or a hi performance part does not mean it is.

Ain't that the truth. That should be a disclaimer at the top of every Ebay motors listing.

18 hours ago, gary32 said:

Benjamin I support your efforts and everyone here is a big fan of the 2002 and the M10.

But to ignore history, metallurgy and the advise of the forum may not give you your best result.

I remember turbo kits from Miller Norburn and my 2002 is fueled by a Motec so we all get it.

Yep no disrespect intended. I see that you have a well informed opinion based on experience, I just disagree. Which is totally fine! I just want to see more people do cool stuff with these engines, because that drives the aftermarket for all of us. What I dislike is the naysaying that takes place on this forum, by folks without your experience building and blowing up engines. I had a well known "knowledgeable" person on this forum tell me that it was impossible to make more than 250 horsepower with a turbocharged M20 because they have belt driven cams... that's bad because it discourages people from trying their ideas.

 

   We could probably find common ground in that I probably should've used H Beams instead of stock with ARP hardware. Chineseium H Beams or good old German castings? There's a metallurgy one for ya. 

 

And now that I talked up the M10 so much watch mine fail hard on the first pull because that's how the universe works haha.

[Lorin]

6 hours ago, Benjamin A.R. said:

Ain't that the truth. That should be a disclaimer at the top of every Ebay motors listing.

Yep no disrespect intended. I see that you have a well informed opinion based on experience, I just disagree. Which is totally fine! I just want to see more people do cool stuff with these engines, because that drives the aftermarket for all of us. What I dislike is the naysaying that takes place on this forum, by folks without your experience building and blowing up engines. I had a well known "knowledgeable" person on this forum tell me that it was impossible to make more than 250 horsepower with a turbocharged M20 because they have belt driven cams... that's bad because it discourages people from trying their ideas.

 

   We could probably find common ground in that I probably should've used H Beams instead of stock with ARP hardware. Chineseium H Beams or good old German castings? There's a metallurgy one for ya. 

 

And now that I talked up the M10 so much watch mine fail hard on the first pull because that's how the universe works haha.

There are guys making WAY more than 250 hp NA from a M20. 
 

Regarding rods, you left out the option of actual high quality rods. You know, the ones the Chinese knock offs  copied. 

[tzei]

OE rods are pretty stout too. M10 and S14 rods can handle 400ish hp so can’t see reason to go aftermarket unless lenght is wrong for aplication in hand.

 

Atleast i haven’t broke one to date.

[Benjamin A.R.]

1 hour ago, tzei said:

OE rods are pretty stout too. M10 and S14 rods can handle 400ish hp so can’t see reason to go aftermarket unless lenght is wrong for aplication in hand.

 

Atleast i haven’t broke one to date.

 

Good to know thank you for sharing that!

[Benjamin A.R.]

3 hours ago, Lorin said:

There are guys making WAY more than 250 hp NA from a M20. 
 

Regarding rods, you left out the option of actual high quality rods. You know, the ones the Chinese knock offs  copied. 

 

Yep! I don't understand that mindset, why speak with authority on something they know nothing about? Anyways yeah you're right, but that would've increased the cost of this particular engine by like 40%. Some day I would definitely like to build the gnarliest M10 I possibly can, do all my own porting, the whole 9 yards. But for now I just wanted to put together a pretty stout one and see what it'll do.

[evil02]

3 hours ago, Lorin said:

Regarding rods, you left out the option of actual high quality rods. You know, the ones the Chinese knock offs  copied. 

 

FYI - there are a few Chinese brands that I have used(non M10) a supercharged v-6 that made 650rwhp at 8k rpms with no concern. In fact, I'm going to try to spin it to 9k next, lol.   Also, I know a few 180'ish n/a M10's using Chinese rods with no issues. There are good and bad brands.

 

I like this thread!  Good luck with your build!!   I'm kind of right behind you.  I have all the parts to build my m10 turbo. I have custom rods, custom pistons, new billet cam, big valves, springs, ti retainers, etc.. Gen II Gtx35 and stand alone.  I just have to get the block bored but, have to many builds going on at the same time..