2002 Won't Start - Wires Smoking

[2002spaceodyssey]

Thanks again for the suggestions. I agree it's crazy because the car started fine until very recently. I will use a jumper cable to check ground as suggested. I also want to try to use the  stock engine block-to-chassis ground point. Can someone post a picture of where the stock ground strap mounted to the chassis/body? Thanks!

 

[John76]

The stock grounding strap from the engine block connects directly to the neg. battery post.

Not an option for you if the battery is in the trunk.

[2002spaceodyssey]

I want to give an update to my no-start issue...no solution yet. Let me summarize the events in case it helps find a solution:

 

1. I replaced the tired stock starter in 2016 with a Bosch SR440X. The battery had already been moved to the trunk. I installed an Optima Red Top sealed battery.The engine spun quickly and started immediately.

2. The car sat for an extended period of time due to rust repair and total suspension and brakes rehab. The battery was kept on a Battery Tender. I started the car a couple months ago with fresh gas and it fired up easily. 

3. While installing the interior, I foolishly plugged in the seat belt interlock connector to my seat belt buckle. This led to a no-start condition because the seat belt wasn't buckled. Upon trying to start the car, the dash lights would come on, but nothing else...no crank, etc. When I realized what was happening, I discovered that I had trapped the wire for the interlock between the bolt and the floor, stripping the insulation. I repaired it with electrical tape, unplugged the interlock, and the car started.

4. Recently when I was ready to drive the car, it wouldn't crank/start. I replaced the SR440X starter with an SR441X unit. The very first time I tried to start it, it almost started. Then it wouldn't crank again and some ground wires started smoking (see the video I posted above.) Based on sound advice from this forum, I connected a jumper cable from the starter mounting bolt on the block directly to the battery's negative terminal in the trunk. The starter would only turn a tiny amount and made the clicking sound. The wire in the photo below with masking tape on it gets hot but doesn't smoke.

5. I took my battery and both starters to Advanced Auto to be tested today. The Optima battery tested good. The SR440X (my original starter) spins but does not extend to engage a flywheel. The new SR441X is toast. It turns a tiny amount each time it's triggered. 

 

As you can imagine, I'm not in a rush to install another starter until I understand what's happening.  Just for fun, I ordered an E30 positive cable off the 2002FAQ.

 

 

[Mike A]

do you have a ground of adequate capacity (0-00 AWG) from the battery to the chassis and a ground from the block to the chassis?

Edited April 2, 2020 by Mike A

[tech71]

1. Have you ever had this support bracket off? Am I looking at heat discoloration there or has it been cleaned up with a wire wheel or something?

 Heat is a result of high resistance. Are you sure  there's no corrosion under there?  

 

Still say your non stock starter itself needs a better ground (to the engine) than the mount point. The nose case on rebuilt starters may have been painted, no guarantee of an adequate path to ground there. We are talking a considerable amount of current here.

 

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by tech71

[Mike A]

On 3/29/2020 at 4:14 PM, John76 said:

 

The operative word being "good".

 

The in-trunk battery is probably grounded to the shock tower (chassis).

However, the engine/trans/drivetrain is mostly isolated from the chassis by rubber mounts, and has a very weak connection to the battery ground. This is why the throttle linkage heats.

The heavy-duty black cable from the block to the very flimsy tab near the brake fluid reservoir in the picture explains why the light-weight brown ground wires get hot and smoke....bad ground, huge amp draw!

Solution: Move the thick black ground cable from the flimsy tab and attach it to the big bolt for the front bumper, or the shock tower.

Make sure the mounting surfaces between the block and the new starter are clean and unpainted.  No need for the support bracket.

 

I'd like to see a pix of the battery ground to chassis

[2002spaceodyssey]

tech71-

 

The bracket has been cleaned with a wire wheel, hence the colors. Under the bracket I've also wire brushed the attachment point on the block. 

 

Mike A- Picture attached. The bolt is welded to the chassis. One thing I'm wondering about - I have a "star" washer under the neg battery connection to the chassis. I'm sure this is something I read on the FAQ, since I am a noob when it comes to wiring. Now I'm not sure the star washer is a good idea....

 

[AustrianVespaGuy]

I would recommend a systematic test from the starter backwards; I'm not yet convinced there's anything actually wrong with your starter, and think that high resistance somewhere is still your problem.  If it were me, I would just disconnect your 2002 battery and (working carefully and diligently), get a good battery out of another car.  Connect it directly to the positive starter terminal, and also hook the negative straight to the body of the starter.  Then (car in neutral, right? RIGHT?!?) use an alligator clip or something to provide the +12V to the terminal of the starter solenoid, and THAT will tell you  if your starter is actually working or not.  I suspect it will fwiw.  Then we can start adding it bits of the 2002 wiring until you find the culprit.

Edited April 3, 2020 by AustrianVespaGuy

[jimk]

I think the there is a loss of ground from the engine to the chasis because the current is trying to find a way back to the battery and is frying other under rated wires.  The battery ground is ok because the current is making it's way to the battery.

Starter grounding usually goes thru the starter case to the mounting on the engine rear.

The ODE (Opposite Drive End) starter motor support is not used much on the smaller case starters.  The support bracket is probably not doing any starter support now with the small starter because it isn't bolted to the starter case as shown in the photo.  The bracket could be eliminated and a ground cable with a larger lug hole used to bolt directly to the block, thereby eliminating one more connection and source of joint corrosion.

[2002spaceodyssey]

jimk- Yes, the starter motor support isn't being used as a support due to the shorter starters. I an going to eliminate it and buy a larger-gauge ground cable, which I'll connect directly to the engine block's threaded hole. I believe I'll fasten the other end of the ground cable to the front bumper bolt. 

 

AustrianVespaGuy- I had both of my starters tested off the car at Advance Auto, and I'm afraid they are damaged.

[tech71]

I prefer braided, tinned copper strap for engine to chassis grounding. Super flexible, carries loads of current, readily available at decent prices in various lengths and capacity. 

https://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-EGS18-Professional-Engine-Ground/dp/B0016HUSVC/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=ACDelco+EGS18&qid=1586881434&sr=8-1

Might as well eliminate the support bracket since its not doing jack now. Not supporting or providing an adequate path to ground.

Edited April 14, 2020 by tech71

[Henning]

What I'm thinking about...

That ground point at the inner fender between the relays and the reservoir may be good enough for the driving lights and the horn. But it is, as Mike stated before, definitely way too weak to carry the load of a starter. It is held to the body by just this flimsy, tight and thin peace of sheet metal. From factory there's a pretty direct line from the starter via the bracket and the strap to battery ground with plenty cross section everywhere. This seems to me what you don't have in this case. Not clear why this has worked before. But now the starter has to look for ground wherever it can find; this maybe the reason why one of the brown wires looks like a chain.

You could check if your black ground cable is long enough to be bolted to the radiator. This wouldn't be perfect but better than now.

If your starter motors are toast, try to find someone in your area that may borrow you a good old school cast iron starter for testing. Yours seem to have alloy housings, and the connection of alloy and a cast iron motor block can sometimes be freaky regarding voltages.

Do you have an aftermarket electric fuel pump in the rear of the car? If yes, where's the wiring for it? Taken from a tii?

Is that an aluminum battery tray? It looks cool! From what kind of car?

Last not least a wiring diagram for a squarie:

The certain ground point is below the horn. There's just one ground strap shown at the battery, I don't know why.

 

hen

[Mike A]

21 hours ago, 2002spaceodyssey said:

tech71-

 

The bracket has been cleaned with a wire wheel, hence the colors. Under the bracket I've also wire brushed the attachment point on the block. 

 

Mike A- Picture attached. The bolt is welded to the chassis. One thing I'm wondering about - I have a "star" washer under the neg battery connection to the chassis. I'm sure this is something I read on the FAQ, since I am a noob when it comes to wiring. Now I'm not sure the star washer is a good idea....

 

 

That connection should be fine. I'd remove the star washer, get as much as possible  area of the flat eyelet in contact with chassis steel

['76mintgrün'02]

4 hours ago, tech71 said:

Might as well eliminate the support bracket since its not doing jack now.

 

Doesn't it also provide support for the intake manifold?

 

I would not put the ground connection on top of it like that, but I'd leave the bracket.  it's not really in the way down there, is it?

[tech71]

It may support the intake manifold on some cars but not on my 76 or the 74 engine sitting on the stand.