1968 1600 with trailer on BAT

[NYNick]

12 minutes ago, Conserv said:

Could this, $41,501, be a record price for a public sale of a 1600-2? I’m not talking asking prices; I’m talking actual recorded sales. It will be interesting to see if the Florida 1600-2 Les discussed above gets a price bump, based on this result... 

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Doubtful. This car has been on their floor a long time. Other than the incorrect mirror which Slavs pointed out, I could find another thing wrong with it. It looks perfect to my inexperienced (at least compared to some of you) eyes.

[Conserv]

33 minutes ago, 114TYP said:

I don't get why 1600's would have to be any cheaper than 2002's, honestly.
It's a vintage car and since they don't match modern cars on performance anyway, I don't see the extra 0.4 litres being that much of a dealbreaker for anybody getting into vintage cars. You still get the same feeling and experience as with 02's.

At least three different explanations, none of which might individually explain this:

 

1. Collectors prefer top-of-the-line models over “price-leading” models,

 

2. Collectors prefer higher performance sub-models over lower performance sub-models, and

 

— the explanation I believe comes closer to fitting —

 

3. The lower value in the instance of ‘02’s is more a function of age or year than it is of sub-model. My evidence: I’ve not seen early 2002’s, e.g., 1968, “first-year” examples, sell for any more dollars than the best 1967-68 1600-2’s.

In certain other makes (Porsche, Porsche, and Porsche), the earliest examples of a model, e.g., 1963-64 911’s, appear to attract high values. Maybe we’re just not there yet... ?

 

Discuss...  ?

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Conserv

[114TYP]

13 minutes ago, Conserv said:

1. Collectors love top-of-the-line models, and — the explanation I believe comes closer to fitting —

 

We don't see the "lux" models bring any more bucks than regular 2002's, though.

 

I think the better argument here would be which was most iconic at the time.

Edited February 17, 2020 by 114TYP

[Conserv]

4 hours ago, 114TYP said:

 

We don't see the "lux" models bring any more bucks than regular 2002's, though.

 

That’s probably true, although I don’t really know the European market, where the Lux package lives. Sure, a handful of Lux models have trickled into the U.S. over the last 45 years, but probably not enough to create a U.S. market.

 

Do 1968 model 2002’s sell for big bucks in Europe? I have no idea. I’m still waiting for a U.S. public sale of a 1968 for over $30K. A very nice Polaris 1968, languishing on the market in the mid-$30K’s, is, sadly, constrained by a non-matching engine.

 

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Conserv

[114TYP]

I haven't noticed a price difference between years of specific model, really. 1502's, 1602's 1802's generally just cost quite a bit less than 2002's from what I've seen. Great pictures help any car A LOT.

[Slavs]

I think there is a difference between the so called "Collector" mindset and the "Enthusiast" mindset with respect to these cars. The collectors may be looking for the period correct car, which this 1600 falls short of being, while the enthusiasts are looking for the best of all years and are not shy of mixing and matching parts etc. I think most of us here fall in the latter category, especially if we drive our cars on a regular basis. I really like the early trim and interiors on the 02, but there are benefits from some of the improvements made to the car during the production run. For practicality many of us have installed the 320i 5 speed overdrive and 3.90 LSD because it is the most cost effective route and the only overdrive which mates well to our engine. I think the 5 speed OD is overrated in some instances, but it has its benefits if you're flying around at highway speeds on a regular basis.

 

This seller has used his trophy or award as supporting documentation for the so called provenance of his car. But, the trophy or award is really baseless for those of us who really know these cars. The judges either were not very informed or knowledgeable, or they just merely judged on general appearance ( The car is clean, but not all the period parts are there ). It's all marketing. I've seen 1968 1600s at wrecking yards which were just as solid, but with all the period correct parts, selling for $500. Sure, the cars needed to be restored, but everything was there. And, it was another time( 1980s - 1990s).

 

As far as I'm concerned, this is all a joke and it's too bad people are buying into it.

[jimk]

I think the term "restored" is confused with "refurbished".  To me "restored" means all the correct parts as it left the factory.  "Refurbished" is repaired/repainted/rust removed. looks nice, drives nice, but not at all "restored".

[jp5Touring]

..

Edited February 18, 2020 by jp5Touring

[FunElan]

4 hours ago, Slavs said:

 

This seller has used his trophy or award as supporting documentation for the so called provenance of his car. But, the trophy or award is really baseless for those of us who really know these cars. The judges either were not very informed or knowledgeable, or they just merely judged on general appearance ( The car is clean, but not all the period parts are there ). It's all marketing. I've seen 1968 1600s at wrecking yards which were just as solid, but with all the period correct parts, selling for $500. Sure, the cars needed to be restored, but everything was there. And, it was another time( 1980s - 1990s).

 

As far as I'm concerned, this is all a joke and it's too bad people are buying into it.

 

Worth noting that the BMWCCA judging guidelines (which were in place at LOTA where the trophy was won) have to do with how clean the car is, not how correct it is. It's not my favorite system either, as I think it would be more fun to judge on the period correct minutiae 

[HBChris]

7 hours ago, Slavs said:

I think there is a difference between the so called "Collector" mindset and the "Enthusiast" mindset with respect to these cars. The collectors may be looking for the period correct car, which this 1600 falls short of being, while the enthusiasts are looking for the best of all years and are not shy of mixing and matching parts etc. I think most of us here fall in the latter category, especially if we drive our cars on a regular basis. I really like the early trim and interiors on the 02, but there are benefits from some of the improvements made to the car during the production run. For practicality many of us have installed the 320i 5 speed overdrive and 3.90 LSD because it is the most cost effective route and the only overdrive which mates well to our engine. I think the 5 speed OD is overrated in some instances, but it has its benefits if you're flying around at highway speeds on a regular basis.

 

This seller has used his trophy or award as supporting documentation for the so called provenance of his car. But, the trophy or award is really baseless for those of us who really know these cars. The judges either were not very informed or knowledgeable, or they just merely judged on general appearance ( The car is clean, but not all the period parts are there ). It's all marketing. I've seen 1968 1600s at wrecking yards which were just as solid, but with all the period correct parts, selling for $500. Sure, the cars needed to be restored, but everything was there. And, it was another time( 1980s - 1990s).

 

As far as I'm concerned, this is all a joke and it's too bad people are buying into it.

As FunElan has also explained, CCA judging is based on Cleanliness unless in a Preservation Category of which we only see two or maybe three cars a year at Legends.  I judged this 1600 and found it quite original but also mentioned that they used euro stickers in the engine bay and the differences were minor other than the steering wheel. It was Super clean however, even the underside as the photos attest.

Edited February 18, 2020 by HBChris

[Slavs]

Chris and Elan, you guys have confirmed my hunch. It's a different type of judging. And somebody was willing to fork out in excess of $40K for this car. What can I say ? I'm not impressed, nor would I pay over $10K for this thing. Maybe I'm behind times. I don't know.

[mccusername]

50 minutes ago, Slavs said:

Maybe I'm behind times. I don't know.

We know. 

[Slavs]

So, how many of you guys would be willing to fork out $40K for this thing ?? Another Cracker Jack with a rusted heap of a 1600 will now list it for $20K, claiming it’s a bargain. That’s what they are doing with the classic Porsches. And the insanity continues. Personally, I can’t wait until the prices come back to some semblance of reality, as they did with some other Marques. 

[Conserv]

23 minutes ago, Slavs said:

So, how many of you guys would be willing to fork out $40K for this thing ?? Another Cracker Jack with a rusted heap of a 1600 will now list it for $20K, claiming it’s a bargain. That’s what they are doing with the classic Porsches. And the insanity continues. Personally, I can’t wait until the prices come back to some semblance of reality, as they did with some other Marques. 

There’s probably not that many prospective buyers ready to pay $40K, Slavs. There was only one active in this auction. But I suspect there would be many prospective buyers between $40K and your high bid of $10K... 

 

Stated differently, the year is 2020: if $10K is your high bid for a car like this, you’re going home empty-handed... ?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

[AlfaBMWGuy]

28 minutes ago, Slavs said:

So, how many of you guys would be willing to fork out $40K for this thing ?? 

 

Maybe not the $41.5K + BaT buyer's premium this thing went for, but saying this is only worth $10K is silly.  You may be hoping for a market/economy reset that would make that so, but in the current market, this is easily a $30K 2002 to a lot of collectors and enthusiasts.  You'd be lucky to be able to do show quality paint like this on a rust-free car you already own and nothing else for $10K.