Can we talk Horsepower?

[markmac]

My engine builder told the very few 4cylinder twin cam motors that are 'really' making 300bhp or more (and those include bmw M12/7 and Hart 420R's, all of them have (that he has worked on) titanium valves, conrods + loads of work done on the crank + just about everything else.  To get that maximum power they are living above 9000 rpm (and in some case 9500+.......But, the owners of those motors are back into them every 15-20 hours of use to see what the bearings and other things look like.  Its 'spensive'.  This is one of my dyno sheets.  We ended up making a little more than this (was like 269.8bhp), not much more out of this motor.  What we say was a decline after 8400rpm.  The rev limiter stops the action at 9000 on my car so 8500 is about it + there is no point since it doesn't make more power.  Needs more cam (I have a set of full F2 cams but opted not to use) and fuel.  The sweet spot is 7500rmp and just about 255bhp, both good numbers I think.

Schnitzer 20-4 Final Dyno Run.pdf

[Vicleonardo1]

Paging Mr Blasko...Mr Ken Blasko....

 

Street build vs Race build?

 I personally for a street set up  would look for more lower end torque/acceleration than top speed because getting caught going faster than 100 mph in the great state of Oregon unleashes a whole lot of hurt.

So I would rather be quick than have a faster top end. 

 

What would Master Blasko recommend for that?

[D Seattle]

Quote

On 5/21/2019 at 4:54 PM, pksurveyor said:

02 is not about horsepower.  It is a 50 years old automobile.  My 02 is the slowest car in the garage.  So what, it is your driving experience that matters. 

 

 

I don't necessarily disagree and have said the same thing here myself.

 

That said, when I was trying to merge from I-405 onto I-90 today, right foot through the fire wall and still unable to overtake a piece of S*** box Kia next to me who was not even trying to cut me off, so I could merge over, I would gladly have written a check for maybe just 20 more HP.  And in fact, I think I am going to try to explore that. 

 

I don't want to do anything heroic to the engine but there must be some way to squeeze a few more horses out?  50 years later, I suspect its only putting out 75 hp at most (ala that top gear epiosde where they had the old Italian cars on a dyno).

[kbmb02]

On 6/19/2019 at 5:41 PM, Vicleonardo1 said:

Paging Mr Blasko...Mr Ken Blasko....

 

Street build vs Race build?

 I personally for a street set up  would look for more lower end torque/acceleration than top speed because getting caught going faster than 100 mph in the great state of Oregon unleashes a whole lot of hurt.

So I would rather be quick than have a faster top end. 

 

What would Master Blasko recommend for that?

 

My opinion / experience (keeping in mind, I prefer the M10 over swaps, and in the 2.0L configuration).

 

Healthy compression ratio build (9.5:1 or a little more), lighter rotating mass (flywheel, sometimes a bit off the crank), consider 144mm rods if going with custom pistons, a strong camshaft grind (292 not always best here), 38/38 or small side-drafts and a distributor with shortened advance curve and a solid, careful, blueprinted build - these are the things which I’ve found to liven-up a 2002 in the RPM range typically driven and driven hard.

 

          Avoid big, heavy steel wheels (I’ve seen some which are 4-5 lbs + heavier than OE).

 

Want more top speed? Swap the differential. -KB

[Vicleonardo1]

I am by any means an engine expert and more dangerous with tools than helpful. But I have been wondering about the attraction to the 292 cam. I was thinking that for what I am looking for, (getting up to reasonable speeds quickly and merge onto I5 without sweating the length of the merge lane) I would think that for a street build a 284 cam with a Weber 38/38 might be more of what I (and some others) may be looking for. I  may be wrong, but I am pretty sure Ken uses custom grinds. 

Just thinking that chasing peak horsepower numbers may be more critical in racing applications than for some of us enthusiasts.

I have seen some Motor heads in ‘Mercian cars tout their awesome dyno numbers, but stumble and stall at every stoplight. 

[Conserv]

40 minutes ago, Vicleonardo1 said:

I am by any means an engine expert and more dangerous with tools than helpful. But I have been wondering about the attraction to the 292 cam. I was thinking that for what I am looking for, (getting up to reasonable speeds quickly and merge onto I5 without sweating the length of the merge lane) I would think that for a street build a 284 cam with a Weber 38/38 might be more of what I (and some others) may be looking for. I  may be wrong, but I am pretty sure Ken uses custom grinds. 

Just thinking that chasing peak horsepower numbers may be more critical in racing applications than for some of us enthusiasts.

I have seen some Motor heads in ‘Mercian cars tout their awesome dyno numbers, but stumble and stall at every stoplight. 

 

Absolute heresy!

 

I have to say that you are being ridiculously rationale and practical. The goal of engine building is not useable horsepower: it's peak horsepower, and the bragging rights attached thereto. Saying "Of course I'm running a 292!" demonstrates that you are fully subscribed. After all, if you wanted to go fast, you wouldn't be driving a 45-year-old German car, two notches up from a VW Beetle....  ???

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

Edited June 22, 2019 by Conserv

[Schnellvintage]

I think the theme with these older M10 engines for the street (and some track classes), is a solid build.  Repeatable, useable and durable horsepower to be fueled by premium pump fluids.  Those were what I wanted out of my engine and most all engines I build.  I remember an old bumper sticker, " He who breaks, loses."

 

Cheers,

Matt

[AceAndrew]

12 minutes ago, Conserv said:

 

...and the bragging rights attached thereto. Saying "Of course I'm running a 300deg. motorsport cam!" demonstrates that you are fully subscribed. If you wanted to go fast, you wouldn't be driving a 45-year-old car....  ???

 

 

Adjusted.  It's all a sliding scale.

[Vicleonardo1]

Steve now has me concerned, I may have to attend a support group meeting of some sort. I truly thought that my practical and rational thoughts dissipated the minute my 02 rolled off the delivery truck. Now he says they may have returned. 

I may have to start looking into some serious upgrades that I cannot afford and would take forever to implement. So I  can tell all my friends,  “ Ha! That guy just has a 292, well I have a 300....Just wait, someday, if my car ever gets out of the garage and I can get a second mortgage,  I think the dyno sheet may blow you away”  

 

Thanks for the intervention Steve, Going to the Ireland site right now and becoming a true 02 owner once again....Peak Horsepower baby! Peak! 

[Conserv]

15 minutes ago, Vicleonardo1 said:

Steve now has me concerned, I may have to attend a support group meeting of some sort. I truly thought that my practical and rational thoughts dissipated the minute my 02 rolled off the delivery truck. Now he says they may have returned. 

I may have to start looking into some serious upgrades that I cannot afford and would take forever to implement. So I  can tell all my friends,  “ Ha! That guy just has a 292, well I have a 300....Just wait, someday, if my car ever gets out of the garage and I can get a second mortgage,  I think the dyno sheet may blow you away”  

 

Thanks for the intervention Steve, Going to the Ireland site right now and becoming a true 02 owner once again....Peak Horsepower baby! Peak! 

 

I believe an even more drastic measure may be called for in your sad situation. The prescription? It’s called a 304 cam.... ?

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

[Schnellvintage]

1 hour ago, Conserv said:

 

I believe an even more drastic measure may be called for in your sad situation. The prescription? It’s called a 304 cam.... ?

 And 11:1 compression pistons...great setup and can use premium pump gas. (if you massage the head).

 

Cheers,

Matt

[JackF]

When, 15 yrs ago, Ray Korman rebuilt my Turbo motor, he offered that he never understood why he hadn’t built more turbo M10’s over the years. He said they are strong as hell and a great turbo platform. My motor was the 6.9 Mahles, 8-8.5#boost, balanced M10 CR, turbo head, Nothing exotic compared to components being listed. Garret T03 was the problem with the k-Fisch. Actually the K-Fisch was the problem with the Garrett, so figure out a modern induction. Without the IC it was 185 hp on Korman’s Dyno. Didn’t Dyno it with the IC. The power in the lower rpm ranges, which is where you drive was outstanding. That power in an 02 is freaking fabulous and achievable...with a little work. Worth a thought

[Seth Horwitz]

I’ll bite. What’s a ballpark price to Turbo an ordinary, carb’d, M10?

[bento]

On 6/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, Seth Horwitz said:

I’ll bite. What’s a ballpark price to Turbo an ordinary, carb’d, M10?

 

It’s probably the most expensive option for 200+hp, short of an S14, if you’re paying a professional. If you’re able to do the fabrication work yourself, you can do a good job with wiring, you understand enough about how an engine runs to tune it yourself, and your engine is still in good condition, you could probably do it for ~$5k.

 

I promised myself at the beginning of my 2002 project that I’d never total up what I spent on the car, so I can’t give you a precise number, but I went the route of paying a professional, and it was probably closer to $20k. I had him convert to fuel injection first and add the turbo later, and I bought a lot of the parts myself, so the total was spread over two years. A stronger clutch is probably something to budget in, but I did that with the 5 speed during an uncommon bout of foresight.

 

The main challenge for either approach is finding a good exhaust manifold. There’s a guy on another forum that makes one, an eBay China special, or custom. I chose to go with the latter as my mechanic was in the process of building a jig to aid fabrication for some other customer turbo cars anyhow. Not sure that would’ve been a viable option for me otherwise.

 

Then you need to be willing to do some cutting of the nose. My radiator was moved a few inches to the driver’s side, and a hole was punched through the core support for the air filter. The valence was cut so an intercooler could be installed behind a turbo style air dam as well. My car is far from pristine, so this didn’t bother me, but I’d struggle with doing the same thing to a nice car.

 

A stock engine will make 180hp/200tq at the rear wheels with just 10psi, or  160/160 at 7psi.That’s almost enough for such a light car. Note how broad the torque curve is.

 

I’m confident this would be reliable power for many years on a low mileage stock M10, but my motor was tired, and the turbo made that more obvious (blow by pressure in the block is pushing oil out all the seals), so now I’m waiting on parts for an engine rebuild. I’m going for a stout build that’ll allow for more boost if I want it, but will be specced pretty close to a mild street build. I-beam rods, 8.75 or 9:1 compression forged pistons, some port work, a turbo cam grind (higher lift, but lower duration than a 272), and an o-ring head gasket. I’m hoping the cam, and port work will gain a bit more 5k-7khp with the same boost levels, but I’m content with current torque, and from what I’ve read, 200lbft is about the limit for what the 245 trans, guibo, and e21 lsd can reliably handle. I don’t really want to test this, and take on the added expense and weight of moving up to the 26x trans and medium case differential.

 

As is, boost is immediate above 3.5k, and comes on just above 2k. Very streetable, usable power and the car will easily keep up with traffic on the freeway. On a track, it still feels underpowered vs most of the modern cars that run at local DE events, but still a massive improvement from N/A and pretty fun.

Edited June 25, 2019 by bento

[Seth Horwitz]

Good info. Thanks.