300 HP, How to Assemble Our Engines Engine Builders Chime In

[jk16vturbo]

After seeing the E85 fuel being offered up, has anyone put any thought into running a M10 on straight alcohol?  Anybody know what compression a NA motor would need and would a single DCOE 45 with the linx manifold be enough to fuel that?  

[evil02]

10 minutes ago, jk16vturbo said:

After seeing the E85 fuel being offered up, has anyone put any thought into running a M10 on straight alcohol?  Anybody know what compression a NA motor would need and would a single DCOE 45 with the linx manifold be enough to fuel that?  

 

  I have not run a M10 on e85 or straight alcohol but, I tried a non BMW motor on propane and that was pretty cool(no pun intended).  E85 is an excellent choice but, the quality at the pump is not always good. Tank to tank could have different qualities and different times times of the year(summer to winter), they have different blends.  Race E85 is where it is at but, expensive and not convenient. Pump does work but, you just can't tune to the ragged edge. A few degrees less timing and its fine.

[jk16vturbo]

I can't even find E85 around me at a station.  I am actually considering getting a license to distil alcohol for a fuel.  It adds up to about $.80/gallon and it burns like high octane fuel with little to no emissions.  My 02 will be used primarily for going to and from shows and a local track day or two.  I know the jets need to be opened up to the size of a garden hose.  

 

I partially agree with you on Honda reliability.  You have to do some serious mods to the block on the B series engine if you want to see 6-800 hp reliably when turboed.  Even then the block stiffeners/dart sleeves aren't always enough.  

[evil02]

5 minutes ago, jk16vturbo said:

I can't even find E85 around me at a station.  I am actually considering getting a license to distil alcohol for a fuel.  It adds up to about $.80/gallon and it burns like high octane fuel with little to no emissions.  My 02 will be used primarily for going to and from shows and a local track day or two.  I know the jets need to be opened up to the size of a garden hose.  

 

I partially agree with you on Honda reliability.  You have to do some serious mods to the block on the B series engine if you want to see 6-800 hp reliably when turboed.  Even then the block stiffeners/dart sleeves aren't always enough.  

 

Yeah, you would need a 25 gallon fuel tank to get anywhere, lol..

 

But understand what you are saying. "You need serious mods to make 6-800 horse from a B series(4cylinder) to make 4 times the HP it came with. Which is impressive as it is. I am talking about a J-series (6cylinder and newer design then a B series) and doesn't need any mods but, valve springs and maybe rods to hit 800

[gary32]

Interesting evil02. What head do you plan to use for your 72 2002 turbo build? 

[evil02]

1 hour ago, gary32 said:

Interesting evil02. What head do you plan to use for your 72 2002 turbo build? 

 

I have a 1.8ltr head. custom cam, billet rockers, larger valves/springs/Ti retainers, etc.. The head was welded and is ported as much as I could. It flows pretty good. I wish I had other heads to cut up and see if they would have been better to use or not but, I didn't.

 

This may not be the best head but, it will work fine. I wasn't building for the highest HP or Tq or Rev's or anything special. I just wanted a rock solid motor in the 450-500hp range. 

 

  We did an analysis of the crank and I don't think it can handle much more than 600 and high RPMs.  I can build a billet crank for $2500 -$2700 that can handle over 1000 hp but, whats the point..

 

 All this being said, the motor could blow up. Who knows.. I'm just giving it a shot. I'm not really a BMW guy per say, I just like building motors.

[uai]

6 hours ago, irdave said:

 

Is it really 8hp?

@7k rpm 8 horsepower

[gary32]

5 hours ago, evil02 said:

I have a 1.8ltr head. custom cam, billet rockers, larger valves/springs/Ti retainers, etc.. The head was welded and is ported as much as I could. It flows pretty good. I wish I had other heads to cut up and see if they would have been better to use or not but, I didn't.

Would it not be better, easier and less labor intensive to start with a m42 and the 16 valve head and skip the welding? If you are offset grinding for stroke and smaller bearings the baseline stuff from Jim Rowe I posted earlier might help you with what's been done.

I get the because I can answer (for the welding) but for a customer?

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by gary32
clarify

[evil02]

3 minutes ago, gary32 said:

Would it not be better, easier and less labor intensive to start with a 16 valve head and skip the welding?

I get the because I can answer but for a customer?

 

  I'm not aware of any 16v head(non BMW) that would work other than the BMW S14 head and if I wanted to go that route, I would just get a full S14 and call it a day. Truth be told, I had a full S14 and sold it as, it is worth more to me in dollars rather than having the engine. N/a, it wasn't exciting to me and rather let someone else who wants it to have it. To me, it's just another 80's/90's 16v motor.

 

Plus, an 8 valve head makes buckets more low end torque down low vrs the 16v head too.

[TobyB]

The M10 with a 16 valve head is called an M12...

 

 

Quote

Trust me, every guy here with a race motor is either doing it now or learning for the first time

 

I can only say this so many times- in all but the least limited race classes, we may not modify basic motor

dimensions.  And in the least limited classes, no- one starts with an aero brick like a 2002.

 

It is VERY true that the bearing size in the M10 is good for grinding a stroker and making friction.  

It's huge.  You overcome it by adding boost

Since the bearings are so oversized, the thing doesn't mind.

For crap's sake, the S54 used M20 eta bearings- and only had problems because

they made 'em smaller....

(the M20 eta made 140 hp, the S54 330...)

 

t

gear driven.

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by TobyB

[evil02]

2 hours ago, TobyB said:

The M10 with a 16 valve head is called an M12...

 

 

 

I can only say this so many times- in all but the least limited race classes, we may not modify basic motor

dimensions.  And in the least limited classes, no- one starts with an aero brick like a 2002.

 

It is VERY true that the bearing size in the M10 is good for grinding a stroker and making friction.  

It's huge.  You overcome it by adding boost

Since the bearings are so oversized, the thing doesn't mind.

For crap's sake, the S54 used M20 eta bearings- and only had problems because

they made 'em smaller....

(the M20 eta made 140 hp, the S54 330...)

 

t

gear driven.

 

 

  Sorry, I more meant race motors in GT3 or like class racing. For sure, the 2002 is a brick and for me, definitely not the #1 choice in track cars. I use to race 83' & 84' Rabbit GTI's and it was the same similar problem. If there were a series around me where there were a lot of 2002's, I'd love it but, there isn't. 

 

  I'm certain the crank bearings on a stock M10 were meant to run for 500,000 miles or more and not have any wear, lol.. These motors are practically tractor engines. It only takes a little machine work to go to a modern bearing. In my mind, it makes sense for a hotrod street motor or someone who does DE's, etc.. It all adds up..

 

d

I like Math..

[Dudeland]

On 1/19/2021 at 5:07 PM, TobyB said:

I'm not sure where you got the idea that anyone thinks the M10 is a fragile little flower, Benjamin.

 

For current race cars in modern race classes we can't use boost.  

So we spin the things, since that's the other way to get power.

My budget limits me to one engine every 3 years, and wet sump, and that limits

my revs to 7500, give or take.  I've destroyed exactly one in 15 years

(funny, they don't last more than 4 or 5 laps without water in them).

 

I have, however, broken my share of rockers.  Amazing what 'not 

quite enough valve spring' can (not) do for you.

Now that steel rockers aren't the cost of pistons, I may aim for 8k+ on

the next engine...

 

And I've worn out a few sets of pistons.  (dented a few, too- that doesn't

seem to bother them in the least, if you don't close the ring gap)

 

The M10 will take a TON of abuse.  DO use the ARP rod bolts.

DO use as light a piston (move the pin, narrow the skirt, etc) as you can.

The stock rods are heavy- and VERY tough.

 

DON'T run it lean, let it detonate, or lose oil pressure under load.

 

Have fun!  If you run it in quali mode, it'll last 4 laps.

 

Properly cared for, I suspect you could run one at 1.5 bar for 50,000 miles.

 

t

It's tough as nails.  Nails can be bent.

Dude with that sort of pep talk, I am running out to strap my turbo on as is.  

 

All kidding aside, i have worked mine hard, and as long as I change the fluids, it will run fine. . 

[evil02]

11 minutes ago, Dudeland said:

Dude with that sort of pep talk, I am running out to strap my turbo on as is.  

 

All kidding aside, i have worked mine hard, and as long as I change the fluids, it will run fine. . 

 

As long as your compression ration is under say, 11:1, throw it on and run E85 or run pump and keep the timing low. It will spool up hard but too soon and BOOM!   

[2002iii]

5 hours ago, evil02 said:

 

  I'm not aware of any 16v head(non BMW) that would work other than the BMW S14 head and if I wanted to go that route, I would just get a full S14 and call it a day. Truth be told, I had a full S14 and sold it as, it is worth more to me in dollars rather than having the engine. N/a, it wasn't exciting to me and rather let someone else who wants it to have it. To me, it's just another 80's/90's 16v motor.

 

Plus, an 8 valve head makes buckets more low end torque down low vrs the 16v head too.

I believe he meant the whole m42 motor. 

 

The fact that you think the s14 is just a 80's/90's 16v motor tells a lot.

 

If you look up the history of the e30 m3 you will see that it is a race car that was detuned and sold to the public only to meet homologation rules. It was a winning motor in its day and can still compete and win against most other comparable cars of the era. It may have been worth more money to you but that doesn't make it just any old 16v motor.

 

I would rather trust the BMW engineering put into a motor a lot more than what some guy on the internet with lots of claims and zero evidence.

[evil02]

28 minutes ago, 2002iii said:

I believe he meant the whole m42 motor. 

 

The fact that you think the s14 is just a 80's/90's 16v motor tells a lot.

 

If you look up the history of the e30 m3 you will see that it is a race car that was detuned and sold to the public only to meet homologation rules. It was a winning motor in its day and can still compete and win against most other comparable cars of the era. It may have been worth more money to you but that doesn't make it just any old 16v motor.

 

I would rather trust the BMW engineering put into a motor a lot more than what some guy on the internet with lots of claims and zero evidence.

 

Ok well, clearly you disagree with everything I have to say and thats cool but, not sure why you keep needing to prove me wrong. 1000's of engine builders use different bearings and rods and pistons and valves, etc.. start reading and you will realize I am sharing nothing new but, I am sharing good tips on how to make an M10 even better.

 

What does me saying anything about the S14 mean, please tell me.

 

 Ok, I will play along. So, it is better than other cars of it's era. Great but, to ME in todays time as I no longer live in the 1988 to 1991 era, it is nothing special. It was cool in its day and ahead of its time but compare to some stock 2021 cars, it's nothing. I mean, there are 300hp mini vans that are pretty incredible, lol..

 

 No need to look up the history of the E30 M3. I had two. I had one E30 M3, sold the S14 and installed a LS3. Sold it. The E30 M3 we have now, we sold the S14 and installed a K24. Then we added a turbo. We since sold the K24 off and are installing a S85 so, I have driven the S14 E30 M3 plenty and they do not excite me nor am I a numbers matching collector. 

 

 The experience of driving a car excites me, not nostalgia. Sorry..

 

 It is ok to not like someone's opinion and I'm happy you are passionate about the S14 and BMW engineering. I am just saying there are other manufactures out there doing great things too. I am also sharing how you can improve the M10 so, I'm not sure why you are upset with me.

 

 Believe me or not. I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone. I am nearly sharing my findings. Take it or leave it. In fact, if you don't like it, you can keep scrolling.  This thread was a NON traditional "how to build a turbo M10" thread. Not a "don't dare talk bad about the S14 or bad mouth BMW engineering" thread.

 

Have a good night.