HELP: Getting it going. Timing, Weber DCOE

[MildSeven]

I need your help…

 

Intro:

 

 

I’ve done a fair amount of searching on this site and google. I have found some info but it’s all never straight forward and I often find something to  contradict whatever I previously found. I’m trying to get my 2002 on the road before I need to store it for the winter (very soon in Montreal). Once I get this settled, I could take her for a test spin around the block, which I’m DYING to do J.

 

Background/Specs:

 

 

Warning, I’m an amateur.

 

 

My ‘02 came with a DCOE 45 setup, it ran “well” although I believe it was running rich. During my 2002 refresh project I removed the carbs, disassembled & cleaned them + put back together with all new gaskets. I noted down the specs. During that process the folks at redline recommend I put block off plates in place of the cold start mechanism, which I did.

 

 

 I set the brass float (no fuel in them) height to ~8.5mm & ~15mm. I re-opened them Thursday to double check this. Although I did read that one person on here said 8.5 & 12.5mm.

 

 

 

 

The fuel pressure is regulator is regulated to 3.5/3.6psi, which I read should be fine for the setup. I do plan on lowering it to 3 though.

 

 

The 02 came with:  Crane XR700 ignition,  292 cam,  10:1 compression

 

 

I put new plugs: NGK BP5ES, gapped at 0.037” (same as previous gap)

   

 

 

I bought a Synchrometer and an INNOVA Advanced timing light.

 

 

Situation/Questions.

 

 

 

-          I’m able to get the motor going with some effort and by fiddling with the distributor, following the redline “Initial setup”

o    Idle speed, ½ turn in after contact with lever

o    Idle Mixture screw 1 ½ turns out

…and pumping the pedal down (WOT) on what I think is more than normal for cold start

 

 

-          The motor shakes a bit

 

 

-          I felt a bit of liquid below the block off plates, just enough to moisten my figure, I believe it was gas.

 

Once the motor is running, I become a deer in frozen in the headlights… like I don’t know what to do anymore it’s horrible.

•   I’ve read multiple things that my timing should be correct before touching the carburetors but if they’re not synchronized wouldn’t that give me a hard time with the timing.

Like what do I do first? 1. Synchronize the carbs, 2. Panic, 3.Timing..etc?

 

 

I will do the timing off the flywheel (the TDC on pulley doesn’t line up with the oil rail & flywheel TDC).

 

 

What do I set my timing at, I’ve read all kinds of different things none make me feel confident. The closest I got to an answer was 32-33 degrees at 3000RPM and even at that I'm not confident.

 

 

Please help me guys, I’m getting very discouraged.

 

Thanks a lot!

Anthony

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by MildSeven

[Son of Marty]

Well at this point you need to do both, if it will idle somewhat try to get the carbs a little more in sync this is what is likely causing the shaking going on and it can be extreme, when you get it to smooth out then set the timing as best you can then go back to  syncing it will take a few times to get it dialed in but you'll get there, don't get discouraged and keep at it.

[MildSeven]

1 hour ago, Son of Marty said:

Well at this point you need to do both, if it will idle somewhat try to get the carbs a little more in sync this is what is likely causing the shaking going on and it can be extreme, when you get it to smooth out then set the timing as best you can then go back to  syncing it will take a few times to get it dialed in but you'll get there, don't get discouraged and keep at it.

 

thanks... so in terms of steps

 

1. so I should sync the carbs, with the linkage

•  I noticed the front (cyl 2) was pulling at 10 and the rear (cyl 4) was pulling at 7 (if memory serves me right).

2. then turn the distributor a little by ear

 

3. rev motor to 3000rpm

• I guess I could use the idle speed screw to hold it there for me?

 

4. Set timing light advance to 32, point timing light in bell housing hole

 

• then I turn the distributor until I see the OT mark, lined up

 

5. adjust air by bass screws & adjust idle speed

 

---

What about the light fuel near block-off plate?

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by MildSeven

[TobyB]

Yes.  You really can do it in almost any order- Ideally, you adjust what's worst first, to get it closer, then you go to the 'next worst' thing, 

and so forth, going through everything 2 or 3 times.  It's totally iterative.  Anyone who says otherwise is leaving something on the table...

 

The timing's a bit dependent upon your distributor- if it's in good shape, you can set it once, spend a lot of time with the carbs, then come

back once you have some confidence in the carb settings.  If it's in poor shape, rev the engine up over 4500, set it at 36 btdc with

no vacuum, and see what happens when you let it drop to idle.  And be ready to have to fuss with it a bit...

 

As for carbs, sync them first, on the linkage.  If you're lucky, your linkage has an idle stop (high idle screw) that you can use to get

the revs up a bit and then balance them on the linkage. This makes sure that they're in sync when the throttle's depressed a bit.

Then, if you are so unfortunate as to have a linkage that relies on the carb idle stops to sync at idle, you get to do it there, too.

Then you fuss with the idle mix screws.  They will NOT all be identically screwed in or out for best idle, but for starters, they should be.

Once you've gone around 2 or 3 times, then try adjusting each one separately by 1/8th turns.

If you are so lucky as to have air  bypass screws, now is the time to get really confused- you can use these to tune the transition

port opening timing, and that's very useful; if you set them so the throttle plate's just about to uncover the first transition

ports on all 4 bodies when the car's idling perfectly, that's a great place to start...

Here is where a vacuum gauge on the manifold's a real time saver- and the 2002 manifolds don't usually have it.  You really can see the effects

of timing, mixture, and idle screw in real time on a vacuum gauge...

 

The short answer is, have at it, and don't worry too much about order.  Keep doing things that make it idle and run better,

and then go back and adjust again.  A WBo2 meter made me a LOT more confident- but at first, you can go by idle quality and acceleration feel.

 

hth

 

t

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by TobyB

[MildSeven]

thanks Toby, you're one of the guys I was hoping would chime in here

 

11 minutes ago, TobyB said:

The timing's a bit dependent upon your distributor- if it's in good shape, you can set it once, spend a lot of time with the carbs, then come

back once you have some confidence in the carb settings.  If it's in poor shape, rev the engine up over 4500, set it at 36 btdc with

no vacuum, and see what happens when you let it drop to idle.  And be ready to have to fuss with it a bit...

 

The '02 was sold to me without any vacuum connected to distributor. This test would help me gauge the condition of my distributor?

 

11 minutes ago, TobyB said:

As for carbs, sync them first, on the linkage.  If you're lucky, your linkage has an idle stop (high idle screw) that you can use to get

the revs up a bit and then balance them on the linkage. This makes sure that they're in sync when the throttle's depressed a bit.

 

If #2 was at ~10 and #4 was at ~7 (on that synchrometer thing), I should be adjusting #4 to "be open" more, correct?

I have the linkage which interconnects the 2 carbs in the middle, with 1 adjustment screw to level them.

 

11 minutes ago, TobyB said:

Then you fuss with the idle mix screws.  They will NOT all be identically screwed in or out for best idle, but for starters, they should be.

Once you've gone around 2 or 3 times, then try adjusting each one separately by 1/8th turns.

 

Are there any tricks to doing this? or it;s all by ear?

 

I don't have idle air by pass screws... I think I'm happy about that because there's already too much going on for my little brain. I do have the ASPX Wideband freshly installed.

 

Thanks a lot again for the answer and the legend of Toby lives on.

 

[Son of Marty]

Which ever carb has the idle stop screw is the master, it's often the front but dosen't  have to be, bring the other into balance with it then use the idle stop screw bring it to 900-1000 or so RPM's. I set the idle mix last and by ear and how the engine responds coming off idle but this is after you have everything else dialed in.

[zinz]

I zoomed in on your engine pic...Very nice!  Where did you get those airhorns?  You gonna run a Ti airbox?

 

Your cable linkage set up makes it easy to sync the Webers.  There is an idle speed screw (probably down low) and there is a "balance" screw which adjusts the sync between the front and rear carbs; that screw appears to be on the top with your linkage. You say your squirrel cage sync tool is reading 10 on the front and 7 on the rear. Simply make the adjustment on the balance screw to achieve a balance between the carbs. Easy, easy, easy.  1/2 turn on the sync screw at a time, then small adjustments to get them balanced.  

 

Turn your fuel pressure regulator down to no more than 3 psi... I think 2.5 would be sufficient.  

 

Sidedrafts need more ignition advance than a downdraft carb. How much advance you set ignition timing can be limited by your compression ratio, but the examples given above should get you running nicely.  Listen for pinging and back off a few degrees to prevent detonation.  Look at the Haynes manual for Ti specs, I bet 28 degrees at 2000rpm will get you close and safe.  Like Toby sez, if the dizzy is worn, it may not give best performance.  

 

I took a lunch break in between typing, so others have chimed in...  I bet get it running well pretty quickly

 

Ed

 

[Simeon]

Don't want to freak you out because you said you had these carbs running perfectly but I note from your specs that the two carbs are not a matched set. Received wisdom is that the carbs need to be the same and therefore have the same progression hole arrangement before they will work together. You may find that someone has cleverly tuned / altered the carbs to match. If so, there is an extra challenge not to mess up that extra level of complexity. 

 

Also, you need to do something about the fuel leak. 

[Son of Marty]

53 minutes ago, Simeon said:

. 

 

Also, you need to do something about the fuel leak. 

Simeon is right about the leak, but it could at this point be fuel slopping out of the float bowls due to the rough running which can be quite dramatic with out of balance carbs, keep a eye on it and if it's still happening with a smooth idle get right on it, there is no such thing as a small fuel leak or a small engine bay fire! 

[zinz]

I got to thinking about your fuel leak... I'm looking at my old Haynes Weber Manual and the fuel float settings you reference don't agree with this manual. It gives two closed factory settings for your series 9, depending on engine; neither of which agree with what you have posted above.  Here's the excerpt:

 

Closed at 5mm ,  Open at 13.5mm in an Aston Martin DB4 Vantage GT or Maserati 3500GT Speciale, or,

Closed at 7mm, Open at 13.5mm in an Alfa Romeo or Aston Martin DB5

 

Though I couldn't find a "7E" suffix, the Series 16 is set at:

Closed at 7.5mm, Open at 14mm

 

Obviously, these Webers are not a "matched set" which is preferable; but that doesn't mean they can't be made to cooperate with one another.  We are also obviously NOT installing them on a Maserati 3500GT Speciale; however....Fuel level settings are very important for proper running with any carbs and Webers are quite finicky to fuel levels.  I think I would re-set your floats to agree with what this manual states for each carb and see if you get better running.  See attached scan.  DCOE settings.pdf

 

If you'd like, I can also scan the jettings found in this manual, but I've found that, while these old settings are a decent place to start, they tend to be lean overall with modern fuels...damned ethanol.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ed

 

By the way, the Maserati 3500 GT is pretty cool... 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by zinz

[MildSeven]

thanks a lot everyone, I really appreciate the comments/help!

 

I will need to investigate the leak, I figured I would do so after adjusting the floats (which I had done (but seems I need to redo)) and the fuel pressure regulator. I was just frustrated/overwealmed over the weekend and didn't want to bother with the motor anymore.

 

 

Quote

I zoomed in on your engine pic...Very nice!  Where did you get those airhorns?  You gonna run a Ti airbox?

 

Your cable linkage set up makes it easy to sync the Webers.  There is an idle speed screw (probably down low) and there is a "balance" screw which adjusts the sync between the front and rear carbs; that screw appears to be on the top with your linkage. You say your squirrel cage sync tool is reading 10 on the front and 7 on the rear. Simply make the adjustment on the balance screw to achieve a balance between the carbs. Easy, easy, easy.  1/2 turn on the sync screw at a time, then small adjustments to get them balanced.  

 

Turn your fuel pressure regulator down to no more than 3 psi... I think 2.5 would be sufficient.  

 

Sidedrafts need more ignition advance than a downdraft carb. How much advance you set ignition timing can be limited by your compression ratio, but the examples given above should get you running nicely.  Listen for pinging and back off a few degrees to prevent detonation.  Look at the Haynes manual for Ti specs, I bet 28 degrees at 2000rpm will get you close and safe.  Like Toby sez, if the dizzy is worn, it may not give best performance.  

 

I took a lunch break in between typing, so others have chimed in...  I bet get it running well pretty quickly

 

Ed

 

 

Yes, they're part of the previous owners setup, I'll reinstall the Tii air box later.  The "air horns" are just a flat piece of metal with 2 pieces of tubing tacked in. I actually filled the small gap (between plate & tubes) with some Metal Weld, so that when I would test with the synchrometer, it wouldn't pull are from the cracks.

 

I'll turn the regulator down to 2.5psi and will start with 28' at 2000rpm to see what that gives. I say the timing part all confident but it will be the first time I try to time anything other than a watch.

 

 

10 hours ago, zinz said:

I got to thinking about your fuel leak... I'm looking at my old Haynes Weber Manual and the fuel float settings you reference don't agree with this manual. It gives two closed factory settings for your series 9, depending on engine; neither of which agree with what you have posted above.  Here's the excerpt:

 

Closed at 5mm ,  Open at 13.5mm in an Aston Martin DB4 Vantage GT or Maserati 3500GT Speciale, or,

Closed at 7mm, Open at 13.5mm in an Alfa Romeo or Aston Martin DB5

 

Though I couldn't find a "7E" suffix, the Series 16 is set at:

Closed at 7.5mm, Open at 14mm

 

Obviously, these Webers are not a "matched set" which is preferable; but that doesn't mean they can't be made to cooperate with one another.  We are also obviously NOT installing them on a Maserati 3500GT Speciale; however....Fuel level settings are very important for proper running with any carbs and Webers are quite finicky to fuel levels.  I think I would re-set your floats to agree with what this manual states for each carb and see if you get better running.  See attached scan.  DCOE settings.pdf

 

If you'd like, I can also scan the jettings found in this manual, but I've found that, while these old settings are a decent place to start, they tend to be lean overall with modern fuels...damned ethanol.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ed

 

Ed, I love you... just putting that out there.

 

Wouldn't the setting of 5mm make it "close" the fuel even later, thus keeping a higher fuel/float level?

 

I will try: 7 & 13.5 (8C) and 7.5 & 14 (7E) + lowering the fuel pressure regulator to 2.5psi

 

How do you guys feel about my spark plug gapping?

 

thanks,

Anthony

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by MildSeven

[zinz]

Interesting air horns; they look like the type used on Solexes in conjunction with the Ti airbox. You most definitely want to seal them up; otherwise unfiltered air will draw thru any gap... this will also disturb the airflow which is not ideal.

 

Unless you confirm your fuel pressure with a gauge, the regulators could be off (my assumption) I know recently I was experiencing overpressure symptoms with a 32/36 downdraft and had to turn the regulator down to 2.5 before it stopped weeping and got good running.  DCOEs may not be so sensitive to this, as most of the web info says 3 - 3.5psi for a DCOE... I only say that your mileage may vary.  

 

Your thinking is correct about float settings.  Smaller close-gap means higher fuel level.  (are both carbs leaking?)  You may only have a leaking seal?  Too high fuel pressure will overfill the bowl, too.

 

Spark gap... 0.037 is pretty wide, but I don't know what a Crane XR700 will tolerate.  

 

Ignition timing:  Here's the specs out of the Haynes BMW manual which are the same as the BMW Blue Manuals.  Your compression is slightly higher than a Ti, so avoid the maximum advance #s listed on second page, middle column for Ti.  Disregard my handwritten notes... Haynes ignition specs.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MildSeven]

22 minutes ago, zinz said:

Interesting air horns; they look like the type used on Solexes in conjunction with the Ti airbox. You most definitely want to seal them up; otherwise unfiltered air will draw thru any gap... this will also disturb the airflow which is not ideal.

 

Unless you confirm your fuel pressure with a gauge, the regulators could be off (my assumption) I know recently I was experiencing overpressure symptoms with a 32/36 downdraft and had to turn the regulator down to 2.5 before it stopped weeping and got good running.  DCOEs may not be so sensitive to this, as most of the web info says 3 - 3.5psi for a DCOE... I only say that your mileage may vary.  

 

Your thinking is correct about float settings.  Smaller close-gap means higher fuel level.  (are both carbs leaking?)  You may only have a leaking seal?  Too high fuel pressure will overfill the bowl, too.

 

Spark gap... 0.037 is pretty wide, but I don't know what a Crane XR700 will tolerate.  

 

Ignition timing:  Here's the specs out of the Haynes BMW manual which are the same as the BMW Blue Manuals.  Your compression is slightly higher than a Ti, so avoid the maximum advance #s listed on second page, middle column for Ti.  Disregard my handwritten notes... Haynes ignition specs.pdf

 

 

thanks...

 

this is the before/after of the velocity stacks:

 

For the fuel pressure regulator, there are 2 outputs, I have a gauge on 1 side.

 

Spark plug gaping: I'll have to see what I can dig up on the gap, but I remember when previously looking it up, I came up with nothing.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by MildSeven

[zinz]

interesting stacks.  You def needed to smooth up that transition at the base...that blunt face was also not ideal for good airflow.

 

Here's the individual stacks on my Solex 40DDH set, designed for a Ti airbox.  Cast aluminum pieces with a bell'd mouth...kinda hard to find these exact type.  I think they may be an Alpina part, as they are different than the Solex PHH stack found on the Ti; and the Solex DDH was an early Alpina A2 option before the Weber DCOEs.  (second pic not mine)

 

 

I use UNI filters with these Solexes... airbox won't clear the standard booster.  

 

 

 

 

[Stevenola]

-Unscrew the progression hole covers and verify that the holes are the same pattern and size as mentioned by Simeon.

-Verify your cold start piston(s) are not stuck open.

-Verify choke #2 is same 34mm.

-Get a matching accel pump discharge valve.

-Are there differences in airflow between the 2 barrels of one or both carbs?  Both throttle valves are shaved?

-Sync the carbs, set timing (make sure you are timing to the correct ball). 

-Check airflow at idle and at 2500-3k rpm for any differences between carbs which could indicate poor linkage.

-Set idle speed at 1000rpm, set mixture screws for best idle, repeat until stays at 1000rpm.

-Measure float level in place by making a mini dipstick and set floats so the level of fuel is 25mm from the deck of the main jet stack hole.  This is more accurate than the book method.  Activate the fuel pump so the bowls fill up before measuring.