Why do tii guys care so much about tii's being real tii's

[norm]

Just one example of many:

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/component/option,com_forum/Itemid,50/page,viewtopic/t,308239/

I have a confession to make. My 2000CS is not a true "CS", in fact it is just a "C". The "CS" came equipped with twin Solex carbs, higher compression and a 4 speed while the "C" came with a single carb and an automatic.

Now for the reason I bring this up. The green "200" on ebay is not a CS. However it is the 4th coupe ever made. 10000004. Just throw on some dual Webers, replace the auto with a 5-speed and give it a CS badge and nobody will care.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-BMW-200_W0QQitemZ280242782983QQihZ018QQcategoryZ6056QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIte

I do believe real turbos need to be real turbos

Norm

[TobyB]

because, if it's really just a 2002, then

they paid waaaaaay too much...

But then, I'm the hack who put coilovers on the rears, tii struts on the front,

and a pair of Webers on it...

t

[norm]

On Jul-07-08 at 12:06:03 PDT, seller added the following information:

A few eBay members have told me that this is NOT a tii, because there is no clock on the dash. The previous owner told me that the fuel injection was taken off long ago, and that this VIN does trace back to a tii, and that the dash may have been replaced at some time. Regardless, I do feel this is a very clean, straight, and solid 2002 for the price. I just thought I would add that so that nobody is misled in anyway. PLEASE REFER TO THE PICTURES FOR ALL DETAILS, what you see is what you get!!! Happy bidding!!!

On Jul-07-08 at 17:35:38 PDT, seller added the following information:

I have received many more e-mails, regarding the authenticity of this tii, so I will put in the description that this is NOT a tii. Please stop e-mailing me regarding that. WHAY YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET!!! Happy Bidding!!!

[CamB]

Well, that one doesn't have the "i" part of tii, which is definitely the most important part. IMHO, not having the upgraded suspension is less of a big deal and I'd rather have uprated suspension, gearbox, diff and brakes on any 2002 - a tii or not.

Once my car is turbocharged, I'm going to sell the tii engine including the Kugelfisher pump, the return line, the electric pump, etc. Someone here (in New Zealand) can stick that in their car and as far as I am concerned it would be as good as a Tii, although maybe worth a touch less.

I think a Turbo would need to be real to command the premium they command. I'd rather have a modified '02 for less money with a modern turbo and EFI.

[tjones02]

.... 1800ti and call it a TI/SA... I wouldn't either. There just seems to be some kind of mystique about "real" tii's just like "real" Hemi Mopars and the only "real" Carreras have 4 cams... WHY are "real" '66-72 Porsche 911S values skyrocketing upwards of 100K when one could have a real nice 912 I know of for around than 10 grand??? I haven't a clue!

In my opinion if it is a US car and the VIN has a prefix of 276xxxx for '72-73's or 278xxxx for '74 then it is by definition a 2002tii injected or not. :b........

I don't know why the NK coupes are orphaned like they are, I love that front end! I think it looks better than the E9 coupe fronts. They are just copies of the E3 sedan (Bavaria) front ends dontcha know.

I don't think 2002's with side drafts should be sold as 2002ti's, but I have no problem with your (Norm's) clone Alpina 2000CS. Nor would I have a problem with someone making a 1800TI/SA clone, as long as it is recognized as a "clone". Just like the clone Alpina and Shelby GT350s and AAR Cudas, and..... Is a Can=Am McLaren still real if it has been re tubbed multiple times over the years... Who has the real Ferrari GTO, the one with the # on the body, the one with the # on the frame, or the one with the # on the motor??? If you're going to make a clone car than take the proverbial automatic slant 6 or 318 car to make your Hemi clone rather than a 440 SixPac...

By the VIN of 422xxxx that '02 on Fleabay is not a tii and though way too many people have pointed it out to him he should have been a more informed buyer when he got the car in the first place to prevent this from happening. AND OR be a more honest seller and re-list the car properly so he can get more money than the ruined auction he has there...... Regardless of it being a tii or not, it IS a very nice looking example of an Atlantic Blue 1974 2002!

What I do know is that Norm's Coupe is one badass rust free black plate California car with real patina that is impossible to duplicate!!!

I just hope after all these years that my Parent's Tii is real... 2760007 = the 7th US tii, and they bought it new thank you. Oh yeah, the blue and gold 2002 TII license plate is real!

Taken at the first Laguna Seca Historic Races in August '74 three months b4 I was born...

[penth2o]

"Why do tii guys care so much about tii's being real tii's"

Because the fact that you pay the amount you do for the original car you have longed for.

Think about it. You plunk down $35,000 for a 66 GTO then you bring it home and find out it is a Tempest clone to look like a GTO.

If you don't know, pay an appraiser.

Buyer beware...

[oz_tom]

The car is what it came out of the factory as. Simple.

[MichaelP]

Now for the reason I bring this up. The green "200" on ebay is not a CS. However it is the 4th coupe ever made. 10000004.

Pretty cool. It's a CA, not a C or CS, and the vin is 1000003, not 0004, which pegs it as the third of 3 CAs built in 1965, not 1967. However, the C and CS were produced concurrently with their own vin ranges, so it's not really accurate to say this is the 3rd or 4th 121 coupe made. This car apparently languished at a dealer for 2 years before being titled. See this page for a vin table:

http://www.bmw2000ca.un.cz/e-history_model.htm

2000CAs were equipped with a single PDSI as noted on this brochure:

[norm]

Not sure how I screwed that up....it is 000003. The CA has the dual carbs and the auto. Very rare indeed. I have driven my 2000 coupe for 8 years and have never two at the same time.

All running rust free coupes should be worth 20K or more. I've seen more Alfa Sprint Specials than coupes and they sell for over 60K.

Norm

[WH]

I do believe real turbos need to be real turbos

Norm

Guess... you might as well ask why bother to own a real Shelby 427 cobra when you can buy a clone for peanuts! After all a good clone for the most part can be made to look, drive and act the same as the real deal. A kirkham cobra can be made 100% correct (minus VIN). Spend $100,000 and not $600,000 for the same car! I'm sure all those Shelby collectors out there will not agree it is the same thing! Why pay big bucks for a car built by Shelby in the 1960's when you can build one today for 1/6 the cost!

As for BMW 2002's tii, ti, turbo etc. You can "clone" these cars with standard 2002 shells, maybe even swap VIN's from one chassis to another too. (highly illegal and immoral) Does that make a car you build a "real" turbo, tii or whatever??? NO!!!!!!!

If the car is a real tii keep it that way. If someone builds a clone and "makes" a home built tii, sure it's ok, but it will never be the real deal, so why would you want to own it? Can you honestly say if you went to car show you'd be ok telling everyone it's a real tii when you know it's not?

Ditto with making a standard MG MGA into a twincam, a standard Ford cortina into a Lotus cortina, a standard Plymouth Barracuda into a AAR cuda, or a standard BMW into an Alpina etc, etc. It will never have the intrinsic value of an original factory built car, not the same history or lineage as an original. It is simply is a car someone has made up, a fake, fakkey doo, a home built vehicle with no providence or real vintage history. In my book if the car isn't a factory original, you're buying a bastard son of a prostitute and it should be treated as such.

WH

[Delia]

Well, us "GUYS" who own 2002tii models and have been driving long enough to know how amazingly different they are and have always been (in stock form at least) from their carb'd brothers/sisters, know how difficult the 7500 (US -spec models) or so were to find or afford in their three years of availability -- not to mention random dealer service and expensive parts...and don't even think about aftermarket performance parts and upgrades.

The survivors of these relative few in number have been increasing in value quite steadily for the past few years, and restoration costs being as they are, the prime examples and easy restorations are being snatched up by ebthgusiasts and speculators -- a trend that has been forcast some quite some years.

In my own experience, I somehow have accumulated two tiis: one is the quintessential classic roundie -- iconic in it's Inka paint and vintage accessories, while the other is an urban warrior/daily driver with its federally-mandated big bumpers and fading paint.

But the acid-test of tii ownership comes when some jacka$$ smacks into your "diamond-in-the-rough" daily driver and the insurance guys write off your car as just an old "2002" that's worth maybe $3-$4K on a good day. Seems the values of the carb'd vs tii models are showing an increasing disparity that makes the more rare of the two worthy of repair.

If you were to compare various old car value guides (NADA Blue Book, Kelly Blue Book, Manheim Gold Book and Cars of Particular Interest), you'd see how the values of carb'd vs. tii models is changing.

So, as an enthusiast, and something of a tii snob, I want to brag about my two tiis and when some "GUY" comes up to me and asks, "is that a tii", I can say, "yes, indeed!"

Delia

Edit: When compared with special interest autos from Detroit like say, a 1969 Camaro Pace Car convertible, you might be surprised to know there were 3,675 units built -- and not all of them with ground-pounding motors and other desirable options. Compare that with the 2,982 (one source) US-spec 1974 2002tii models. Both are equally rare, but according to the NADA Classic Car Guide, a nice, well-optioned pace car will set you back nearly $100 Grand while the lowliest 6-banger version at "low retail" is worth a "mere" $16K.

Years from now, don't be surprised if the fully-restored, squarie tiis, no matter how ugly in US trim, get to be valued higher due to their rarity. I hope I'm long dead when that day comes.

[mcmil]

The "New" tii MT built in the glass workshop a 'real' tii or a clone?

Built by BMW using BMW parts and BMW facilities, but not on the production line and 30+ years later.

[wegweiser]

Um....Mr Jones.....HERE'S two of the reasons a 911 S is worth more than a 912:

1) cylinder number 5

2) cylinder number 6

I've driven 912s...they are absolutely NOT anywhere NEAR the experience of a 6 cylinder early P car.

Paul Wegweier (builder of this monster = 350hp for a "real" 1969 911S racer at 1895 lbs.) Fastest scariest LOUDEST car I have ever driven at 4:00 am on a public highway. *smirk* This is a 2.9 l ...the original 2.0 l K'Fischer injected honest-ta-god "S" motor is in storage....and should be preserved with the car throughout it's life.

[KFunk]

why does an extended index finger have a different meaning than an extended middle finger? which one would you rather have directed at you?

everything has a meaning attached to it, and its all in your head. some people attach more meaning to it than others. you can say that it doesn't matter to you, and that you're 'above' that. but think about someone pointing a finger at you, and which finger you'd rather it be. the finger isn't performing any physical action, so it should not matter. but it does matter, just like all other socially attached meanings.

[Delia]

why does an extended index finger have a different meaning than an extended middle finger? which one would you rather have directed at you?

everything has a meaning attached to it, and its all in your head. some people attach more meaning to it than others. you can say that it doesn't matter to you, and that you're 'above' that. but think about someone pointing a finger at you, and which finger you'd rather it be. the finger isn't performing any physical action, so it should not matter. but it does matter, just like all other socially attached meanings.

"We hear ya, Man! It's the f'n establishment!"

"Delia's gone, one more round."