1968 1600 with trailer on BAT

[02Les]

Car was built January (probably the 25th) 1968.

[esty]

3 hours ago, Slavs said:

if one gets picky and gets into the purist details, there are some mistakes with this restoration:

you sold me....the car has too many imperfections...too much shade tree restorations going on with this car

 

i'm perfect and insist on a perfect car

[PaulTWinterton]

5 hours ago, Slavs said:

4. The valve cover is from a 66-67

 

5 hours ago, Slavs said:

6. What happened to the covers on the strut bearings. Why are they missing ?

 

Wow, Slavs should be a concours judge.  He'd be brutal.  But I must say that on a beautiful example I don't understand how the valve cover could be left in that dirty, oxidized state.  AND missing dust covers on the struts!  Those 2 things are the first you'd see on lifting the hood.  I'm just a little surprised.

[bimbill]

Comments regarding the correctness of certain components on this restoration remind me of why our chapter stopped organizing an annual Concours d'Elegance.  For several years I was chairman of the committee that organized the event and one of my jobs was recruiting and training judges for the various classes.  What we found was that those members who had exceptional knowledge of a particular model usually had a car entered, an automatic disqualification.  Others who had detailed knowledge were usually local shop owners who might have performed work on entrants cars, another disqualification.  That left us with club members who were willing to be judges, a somewhat thankless job as the entrants who didn't win their class were often willing to tell us how we got it wrong.  One way we found to avoid the swamp of judging was to base it simply on condition and cleanliness.  We weren't about to start removing hubcaps to check the date code on wheels, for example.

 

These days our most popular events are gatherings involving cleaning up your car and bringing it out to share with others.  No judging, no trophies just sharing of stories and tips on how to keep the old cars on the road.  I'm not saying there is anything wrong with judged competition,  just that it takes a lot of effort and willingness to put up with some of the above issues.  I know a couple of the LOTA judges and they are as knowledgable and fair as you could hope for.  Hats off to them and to the owners who win trophies.  

[Conserv]

My read — based on 185/70 CN36’s and a lowered stance — is that this car is not intended to be “as manufactured” on or about January 25, 1968, but is intended to be a personal interpretation of an early 1600-2, one that probably appeals to a wide range of buyers. As such, I believe it succeeds marvelously. It’s a beautiful and extremely appealing car as is, including obviously being “show-worthy” in its present form.

 

I believe it’s up to subsequent owners to decide whether they want to enjoy it precisely as it as — certainly not a problem — or to make it “as manufactured”, and that would require addressing the legitimate comments presented by golf73, slavs, and others.

 

I believe one of the duties of a vintage car forum such as this is to uncover and make available knowledge of how these cars looked and functioned when new. So... we — well, certainly I — like to make lists of “what’s not stock”. But another of the duties — seemingly at odds with the first — is to share ways in which these cars can be altered and modified, to suit personal tastes, modern times, or whatever. Few owners are at the extremes of (a.) “as it left the factory” or (b.) “how an ‘02 built today might look or function”. Most owners are somewhere between these opposite poles. This particular car, like most ‘02’s, displays evidence of both philosophies. The next owner gets to make his/her impression on it, whether it’s to (1.) keep it as is, (2.) swap the trap mirrors for swan’s neck mirrors, or (3.) add fender flares. ?

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by Conserv

[golf73]

2 hours ago, bimbill said:

Comments regarding the correctness of certain components on this restoration remind me of why our chapter stopped organizing an annual Concours d'Elegance.  For several years I was chairman of the committee that organized the event and one of my jobs was recruiting and training judges for the various classes.  What we found was that those members who had exceptional knowledge of a particular model usually had a car entered, an automatic disqualification.  Others who had detailed knowledge were usually local shop owners who might have performed work on entrants cars, another disqualification.  That left us with club members who were willing to be judges, a somewhat thankless job as the entrants who didn't win their class were often willing to tell us how we got it wrong.  One way we found to avoid the swamp of judging was to base it simply on condition and cleanliness.  We weren't about to start removing hubcaps to check the date code on wheels, for example.

 

These days our most popular events are gatherings involving cleaning up your car and bringing it out to share with others.  No judging, no trophies just sharing of stories and tips on how to keep the old cars on the road.  I'm not saying there is anything wrong with judged competition,  just that it takes a lot of effort and willingness to put up with some of the above issues.  I know a couple of the LOTA judges and they are as knowledgable and fair as you could hope for.  Hats off to them and to the owners who win trophies.  

 

 

It's certainly a beautiful car given a thorough nut-and-bolt restoration. Insane money must be in this thing. In the current market, where these cars are showing greatly increased valuation/more attention from investors, would it be a pity if someone buys this thinking it's restored as original, and not to someone's tastes and/or parts availability?

 

My perspective: too bad for them.

 

[golf73]

7 hours ago, esty said:

you sold me....the car has too many imperfections...too much shade tree restorations going on with this car

 

i'm perfect and insist on a perfect car

 

Sounds like the perfect imperfect car for you! ?

Edited February 8, 2020 by golf73

[114TYP]

Does it bother anybody else too that apparently the new door panels from BMW have much deeper heat "stripes" on it than originals? Doesn't really match the rear ones in my opinion, especially since they are not available from BMW either. Or rather, it looks more stuffed. First time I noticed this with this car, and it looks odd.

Edited February 8, 2020 by 114TYP

[Conserv]

On 2/8/2020 at 5:43 PM, 114TYP said:

Does it bother anybody else too that apparently the new door panels from BMW have much deeper heat "stripes" on it than originals? Doesn't really match the rear ones in my opinion, especially since they are not available from BMW either. Or rather, it looks more stuffed. First time I noticed this with this car, and it looks odd.

I’m fairly nutty and it doesn’t bother me. The differences here seem — no pun intended — minor. Raking light, more often seen on open doors, also accentuates the volume of the pleats. But, yes, I’ve noted differences in door card stuffing for decades. I also believe the stuffing slowly breaks down and the pleats become softer with time, so brand-new door cards generally appear more plump than older door cards.

 

Looking at some of the earliest brochures, I think “Huh, those pleats look pretty darned pronounced...”

 

Below, three examples from early brochures

 

1. April 1968

2. May 1968

3. August 1968

 

Numbers 2. and 3., especially, look like they got Botoxed... ?

 

So, no, it doesn’t bother me.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Conserv

[Slavs]

On 2/7/2020 at 11:42 AM, NYNick said:

This one is $45K and looks very nice. How much is that trailer worth?

 

https://www.gaswerksgarage.com/car/1968-bmw-1600-coupe/

They were asking $60K not too long ago. Again, the mirror is incorrect. The car was originally equipped with the more elegant swan neck mirror which in my opinion looks much better on these early cars with clean lines and trim. The Campagnolo wheels, though are nice aftermarket period correct wheels.And that is the correct 68 specific steering wheel which is of higher build quality than the 69 and later steering wheels.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Slavs

[02Les]

7 hours ago, Slavs said:

They were asking $60K not too long ago. Again, the mirror is incorrect. The car was originally equipped with the more elegant swan neck mirror which in my opinion looks much better on these early cars with clean lines and trim. The Campagnolo wheels, though are nice aftermarket period correct wheels.And that is the correct 68 specific steering wheel which is of higher build quality than the 69 and later steering wheels.

 

This Florida '02 has gone from one Dealer to another for the past 6 years. Price also has bounced around, $28k to $40k to $69k and now $45k.

Edited February 9, 2020 by 02Les

[Slavs]

This thing sold for $40,501. That's insane. I have two of these cars, and I stand to benefit, but some of you guys are crazy for buying into this insanity. While this car was exhibited as a rotisserie type of restoration, and given all the efforts, there was a lack of attention to detail as I pointed out.

[maharaja]

In nineteen hundred and seventy eight or maybe nine I......I...

oh never mind.

[Conserv]

Could this, $41,501, be a record price for a public sale of a 1600-2? I’m not talking asking prices; I’m talking actual recorded sales. It will be interesting to see if the Florida 1600-2 Les discussed above gets a price bump, based on this result... 

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Conserv

[114TYP]

I don't get why 1600's would have to be any cheaper than 2002's, honestly.
It's a vintage car and since they don't match modern cars on performance anyway, I don't see the extra 0.4 litres being that much of a dealbreaker for anybody getting into vintage cars. You still get the same feeling and experience as with 02's.