Existential Crisis

[williamtii]

Hello All,

 

Looking for some feedback on my current internal struggle. I originally bought my 73 Tii 15yrs ago at the age of 18 with the intention having it be a rolling restoration. I can due the mechanical aspect and was going to learn the body work and paint. 

About 6months later I started seeing the first good restorations hitting into the $20's on ebay and decided I should not muck up a good car with shoddy beginners body work. The plan was to drive it around, taking care of what was needed to keep it going and wait until I got a big boy job to send it to the pros. I figured if I helped with as much of the process and provided all parts I could keep the costs reasonable. At the time an unofficial estimate from 2 different shops put me around 10K so I figured 15K with a buffer. 

 

Fast forward 10 years and the climate has changed quite a bit. With restored Tii's going up above 6 figures, restoration costs have followed suit. I have heard numbers for a car of my condition well above 50K. One of the shops I had originally talked to wouldn't even entertain my car, said it wouldn't be worth their time! 

 

So with a big boy job in hand, I have enough stashed to do something with the body. It runs and drives great and has honestly been a blast to drive as is. Interior, bumpers, and trim are out and I have some cheap knock-off racing seats in it. Rust is certainly present but not terminal by any means. Fenders, rockers, rear quarter arches, and chin spoiler need new metal (and whatever lurks behind). Frame rails, floors, trunk, shock towers, doors, windshield, etc is all good. I also have many of the patch panels needed and an extra hood and trunk. I would absolutely be keeping the original color Riviera. My real problem with all of this is that I do not really l do not really like the idea of driving a high dollar restoration car around. And I certainly dont want it to sit around just for looking at.

 

And for 50K or more I would rather keep it as is and buy an e34 M5, 1st Gen MR2, 78' Lincoln, Merkur XR4Ti, 944, and a crappy XJ6

 

So with this, I have a new idea of having some less expensive body and paint done, put a roll bar in it, and go to track days and have fun with it. Does anyone have any recommendations for a shop around the NYC area? I have been keeping tabs on other peoples restorations on the faq for many many years so I have a good idea of whats needed, and can work with them where possible. 

[FunElan]

I don't see a crisis at all - you know what you want to do. If you don't plan on selling the car, "eff the haters" and just build it for yourself to enjoy. 

 

Don't know many shops near NYC, but VSR1 is well known and somewhere in New England. 

[rcf925]

Doing it yourself will also give you satisfaction  that you don't get by having someone else do the resto. You also will know your car inside and out. If at a later date when you might have money laying around you can always  upgrade anything you want

[NYNick]

I'm not sure what you're looking to have completed. Your list of body repairs is extensive and expensive. To wit:

 

Rust is certainly present but not terminal by any means. Fenders, rockers, rear quarter arches, and chin spoiler need new metal (and whatever lurks behind). Frame rails, floors, trunk, shock towers, doors, windshield, etc is all good. I also have many of the patch panels needed and an extra hood and trunk. I would absolutely be keeping the original color Riviera.

 

That's a lot of work. I had a shop in Mount Vernon do my car and it entailed less body work and a color change. PM me if you want to discuss. I can tell you wherever you go, the panel gaps and hood/door alignment should be discussed beforehand. You're talking months of work and many thousands of dollars. How long and how much depends on your wallet, but it ain't cheap.

 

Then there's the mechanical work. You're just going to throw a roll bar in it and go to the track? What about safe seats? Harness? Suspension? Wheels and tires?

 

I'm afraid your idea might cost almost as much as a restoration. Just the mechanical stuff above is thousands.

 

If you're local to Westchester, I'm happy to show you what I did and who I used. I did a lot of the work myself. It's going to be an expensive driver not a track car but I'm still going to drive the hell out of it. We only live once.

 

Nick

[joysterm]

 

Here's my take on your dilemma. With my 5 year journey just completed to resurrect a car that had been sitting around for 40+ years, I can relate to some your concerns. For me I knew or had a pretty good idea what to expect in terms of dollars required and was very fortunate to have a west coast car that was essentially rust free . There was no metal work required apart from deleting those annoying markers. So again I was lucky to avoid  what typically is a rather expensive element to any restoration.  That said I still spent a " shitload" on the other stuff to get the results that I was looking for. Despite the many frustrations experienced over these past 5 years I consider the process well worth it if I get a car that I am proud of and want to drive (under certain weather conditions I might add).

 

In terms of your case it would appear that you have similar feelings about your car and the enjoyment you get from it. If you have the funds to address the major issues to enhance that feeling then I find no reason not to follow thru with the required work. 

 

However...

 

11 minutes ago, williamtii said:

My real problem with all of this is that I do not really l do not really like the idea of driving a high dollar restoration car around. And I certainly dont want it to sit around just for looking at.

 

I feel you may have answered your own question to your dilemma..... if you are worried about what the value of the car  at any one particular stage in its life and the anxiety that come with it then IMO you should not go the full restoration route and just drive and enjoy as is . If you need to spend a lil more on the things that are important to you then by all means fill your boots. Don't worry about the market., remember  beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  What ever makes you happy at the end of the day is what really matters.  

 

Good luck with it and enjoy the ride.

[02Pilot]

Almost anything you do to make it more of a track car will make it less of a road car and almost certainly cause you to drive it less, not more. Climbing over door bars and sitting in fixed-back racing seats gets old fast. If you want a track car that's fine, but don't delude yourself into thinking you'll get more seat time (unless you sleep on a Scrooge McDuck-scale pile of money, in which case this whole discussion is moot).

 

Do anything that needs to be done, and anything that will add to the reliability of the car, and drive the damn thing whenever you can.

[1936spyder]

.

[Vicleonardo1]

Without checking the real values of the situation and not knowing how much desire you have in going to the track. 

 

Tii as track car probably OK,  but probably get more horsepower, flexibility and performance from a carbed 02. 

 

If the value is there,  my existential answer  would be to use the Tii as a daily driver, fix it up for that to your satisfaction and go looking for a bargain 2002 to turn into a track car. The Tii will only increase in value.

 

On the beater investment, you will probably replace a few panels on the track car with fiberglass anyway. Carbed will get you more performance, more flexibility. And you can work on  your fabricating skills with impunity. 

 

Or you could sell the Tii and use that money to invest in a track car. 

 

But what do I know, I ain't no Toby.....

Edited February 12, 2019 by Vicleonardo1
clarity.

[dirving]

Everything above. Much knowledge here. You might try Sports Car Restoration in Ct just to confirm. Done many 02s nicely.

[albatcha]

I bought my 74 tii about 10 years ago, it didn't need any rust repair in terms of cutting and welding but it did need paint. I went ahead and painted it myself, learning as I went, I spent about $1k on supplies and to see the imperfections you have to be closer than two feet, that's good enough for me. I figure if I ever want to have a $15k paint job done then after I get it done I just will have spent $16k on paint total. But for now my own paint is more than good enough for driving around town or to cars and coffee.

 

And the thing about doing it yourself really is true, when you're doing the stages of cutting and buffing and it starts getting shinier and looking smoother, I couldn't imagine that picking up a painted car from a body shop would feel as exciting and satisfying. When I first finished I would just go sit and look at the car for minutes on end incredulous that I had been able to do such a good paint job.

 

Whatever you want to do I would say do it yourself or have it done cheaply if you want, if that is good enough for you then that's all it needs to be. It can always be redone better.

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by albatca
Additional comment

[williamtii]

Thanks for all the response guys, figured I would get a whole lot more flak for trying to ruin a roundie Tii !

 

I dont intend to make it a real track car and put it in harms way. More of something to take to driver days. My younger cousin started dragging his E30 318 around to track days and its getting on my nerves! He's proving its cheap, easy, and way too much fun. A roll bar isn't essential, more of a "while your in there" idea to add some safety. They also look cool............. 

 

I can do all the mechanical and suspension, and wouldn't bring it very far from stock. It's real purpose is to bomb around around town and scare the children. 

 

I would also be happy to help with sanding and blocking but I know it's hard to find a shop that will let you do this. I have a little guy now and the garage is not big enough to work in, so time and capabilities are a bit crunched. The missus is starting to squawk about a second so this is going to be my best opportunity.

 

Here's the car from the fall before last, its all still the same. Rust looks better here than it actually is. Little girly is hiding some nasty fender fender rust that I know extends well behind. and the rear arch on the other side is in worse shape. I do have 2 NOS fenders for it. 

 

 

 

 

[SydneyTii]

So ive had these cracking little cars for over 35 years and many on here for much longer.

What have I learnt..... high dollar restorations sit well with some people and that's fine right, their car, their money, all good

But for me I couldn't justify the cost and have a car i'd worry about scratching, chipping the paint of (but that's me) and I would worry

So my lovely little Tii was bought as an older resto (7/8 years before I bought it), and has gradually deteriorated over the years, even though I have poured money into it, the bodies just do, especially if you drive it every day and leave it in the rain (i live very very close to the beach)

I now have a rotten door (and the 2nd is well on the way) rust in a wheel arch, a bit in the very outta rocker and some rear screen rust.(i didn't protect it at the time and im amazed its not worse! I now also have a carport underway)

I have thoroughly rebuilt the suspension and most mechanical items with the engine is next,

The body will be done to a good competent standard, not a show car standard no way,  I have filled any and all cavities and sealed the external floor with Bilt Hamber products with any rust taken care of, this stuff is amazing.

So i'd say spend a reasonable amount getting the rust fixed, protect everything with some product or other, cover it from the elements and drive it as much as you can (these cars need driving) most likely these days you may even break even (if your'e lucky).

But most of all enjoy it, when it becomes a chore or you worry to much its probably time to move on.

 

[SydneyTii]

7 minutes ago, williamtii said:

A roll bar isn't essential, more of a "while your in there" idea to add some safety. They also look cool............. 

If you intend to use this on the road, i'd avoid a roll bar, that is unless you want to also wear a crash helmet when you drive it on the road, do some research about the dangers of roll bars, I think there's a few guys on here that have commented on them previously for road cars.

Good luck with whatever you do, im sure it will be fun.

[02Pilot]

5 minutes ago, SydneyTii said:

If you intend to use this on the road, i'd avoid a roll bar, that is unless you want to also wear a crash helmet when you drive it on the road, do some research about the dangers of roll bars, I think there's a few guys on here that have commented on them previously for road cars.

Good luck with whatever you do, im sure it will be fun.

 

Yeah, this. Either full cage and harnesses or forget it. Half-assed unpadded roll bars are a whole collection of bad ideas.

[saaron]

You lost me at seventies Lincoln.  And possibly XJ6.  

 

 

Anyway, I'm trying to add something new to the thread, and I will say your concern that you could potentially make it too nice to drive is real.  I know people where that happened.  And they eventually sold the car, because it mostly just sat there, because it was too nice to drive.  

 

I recently commissioned a project on my car ('72 tii), where I'm having the rot taken out of the chassis.  And I can tell you, I probably pushed waiting as long as was prudent.  Once the rot starts, it never sleeps.  So you may want to think about doing that part, and drawing a line where you don't touch the top (if possible).

 

My goal was to get the car solid underneath, and leave the 10 footer paint job.  In a way, I think of it as protecting any value the car might have now or later.  I'm sure you've noticed that 02s with obvious rot don't sell for very much, because if you can SEE a bunch of rot, it is going to be very expensive to fix if you don't DIY.  And everyone knows that. 

 

Witness the constantly for sale/bought and sold many times over the past three years '72 golf euro tii, that (last I checked) isn't selling for mid-teens.  It's not a $50k roundie tii.  It is a roundie tii that probably needs $50k invested in it to be worth $50k.

 

From my experience with my project thus far, I can tell you that the metal parts and pieces themselves are a small fraction of the cost, so don't feel too overly good about having the parts and pieces - they don't add up like the labor does.  (As some point out above, the parts add up a lot more than they used to, though.)

 

Last point is to take any "value" stuff with a grain of salt when you are making decisions.  Not every roundie tii is worth $50k.  That is the minority.  And values can change.  You can buy several different classics from the '40s and '50s for less money now, vs. 15 years ago, because tastes change as the market for classics evolves.  In 15 years, 02 fever may have passed for all but the most original cars, or perfect restos.  Everything else might not be worth a whole lot.  You never know.    

 

Best of luck on it.  

 

Scott