66 1600 in Boxes : Update : Photos - Rolling Shell

[tups]

Alternatively, you can "fix" as many of the issues as you can - make the holes in the rear bulkhead, use the donor center panel from the car outside - you've got the checklist on the 02 forum. I'm not sure about the brake booster either - maybe it's an American thing, but my 67 doesn't have one for sure. What's for brakes ? It should have single pot calipers. But at least the window washer bottle is correct

 

[Conserv]

On 12/12/2017 at 12:34 AM, tups said:

... I'm not sure about the brake booster either - maybe it's an American thing, but my 67 doesn't have one for sure. What's for brakes ? It should have single pot calipers....

 

 

I don’t know about the cars imported into the U.S. in 1966, but certainly many (most?) of the 1600-2’s imported by Hoffman Motors in 1967 had the optional power brakes, as one of the "mandatory options".  You bought what Hoffman imported and they liked to add options!

 

Below is the window sticker for VIN 1527753 (manufactured June 6, 1967), showing the $45 power brakes option.

 

I owned a 6-volt, ‘67 model 1600-2 — unfortunately, I cannot locate the VIN — and it had the factory power brake option as well.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Conserv

[dbmw2002]

Can someone talk some sense to the probable buyer? (Yes he is in love, rightly so) and the truth to the seller? The last I checked Hagerty  doesn't have a category for 50 year old BMWs with altered ViNs. Yes could be an awesome daily when built but at the end of the day you have a outlaw (this ain't no 356). Beautiful paint and boxes of spares don't mean alot. Original ViNs are highly underrated. I doubt this shop wants it's name advertised. 

Having said that the brake setup keeps me reading, original from 66, or from parts car. If from parts car (non -66-67) then the first thing I would check is the drivers side front gril. If you find wear marks from the ti grill emblem then you might of really found something, the true Holy Grail of e10s, the 1600ti.

[Conserv]

9 hours ago, dbmw2002 said:

 

Having said that the brake setup keeps me reading, original from 66, or from parts car. If from parts car (non -66-67) then the first thing I would check is the drivers side front gril. If you find wear marks from the ti grill emblem then you might of really found something, the true Holy Grail of e10s, the 1600ti.

 

Huh?

 

So, if I understand this -- and I'm not certain I do -- you are suggesting that when the time came to put the ol' '66 chassis to pasture, they happened across a less rusty 1600ti chassis.  Then they:

 

(1.) excised the chassis VIN and removed the metal VIN tag from the 1600ti, perhaps discarding them because they didn't have a valid title for the 1600ti,

(2.) excised the chassis VIN and removed the metal VIN tag from VIN 1505146, moving them to the old 1600ti chassis,

(3.) transferred many of the VIN 1505146 parts from the original chassis to the 1600ti chassis, but,

(4.) since the original VIN 1505146 did not have power brakes, they kept and re-used the brake booster from the 1600ti, because the owner had always wanted power brakes.

 

While I agree that the current owner and body shop might neither recognize nor respect a 1600ti, especially if it was a title-less shell, if the above sequence is what you're describing, it appears to hinge largely on the conclusions that (a.) the '66 did not have original power brakes, (b.) the '66 did not have power brakes retrofitted, and (c.) of all the U.S. '02's imported, by Hoffman Motors or by others -- including 1600-2's, 2002's, 2002A's, and 2002tii's -- the current owner happened to buy an example of a submodel, the 1600ti, that was never officially imported and which exists in the U.S. in such small numbers you can probably count them with two hands (and perhaps a foot).

 

While I can't disprove your supposition, I would posit a much simpler solution:  VIN 1505146, a September 12, 1967 example, was manufactured and imported with power brakes.

 

Power assist for the brakes became an option early on, within 1966.  I know we discussed this in a thread with Anders (indisputably one of the top '66 gurus and former owner of what is likely one of the world's best '66's) -- can't find it now, of course.  If I recall, Anders thought that the power brake option was available by September 1967 because the thread specifically addressed VIN 1505146. And U.S. 1600-2's, in particular, thanks to Hoffman Motors, quickly got power brakes as a "mandatory option".  I just don't know when Hoffman began ordering it sporadically and/or when it became such an option.  Stated differently, Hoffman Motors ordered the cars and you took what they ordered.  And they seemed eager to add options such as power brakes, probably motivated by some combination of increasing their profits and tailoring the cars to the U.S. market.

 

So before forum members begin pilgrimages to South Carolina to see a "1600ti turned into a '66," I believe they should consider a much simpler explanation, one which does not involve a 1600ti... ?

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Conserv

[Conserv]

9 hours ago, dbmw2002 said:

Can someone talk some sense to the probable buyer? (Yes he is in love, rightly so) and the truth to the seller? The last I checked Hagerty  doesn't have a category for 50 year old BMWs with altered ViNs. Yes could be an awesome daily when built but at the end of the day you have a outlaw (this ain't no 356). Beautiful paint and boxes of spares don't mean alot. Original ViNs are highly underrated. I doubt this shop wants it's name advertised. 

 

I agree.

 

From a practical standpoint, a titled car with chassis VIN and VIN tag is not going to be questioned or examined, unless the VIN swapper is indicted for operating a car theft and VIN-swapping ring and decides to tell all!  But many (most? all?) states would require assignment of a new VIN to a re-bodied car and/or a branded title of some sort, e.g., "remanufactured," "salvaged", etc.

 

Moreover, I would strenuously object to tups suggestion above, to better conceal the fraud by making additional modifications to the chassis.  Ever since President Nixon, Americans have a saying "It's not the crime, it's the coverup" that seals one's fate!

 

The highest and best resolution -- and, I'm confident, the most expensive -- would be for someone to purchase the freshly painted car (a.k.a., "New VIN 1505146"), the gutted '66 shell (likely, "Original VIN 1505146"), and the original engine (I'm assuming it's engine number 1505146), and restore Original VIN 1505146.  You'd wind up with a two-owner '66.  And anything can be restored: it's just a matter of time and money -- did I mention the money?  ?

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Conserv

[73tiiDavidPA]

52 minutes ago, Conserv said:

10 hours ago, dbmw2002 said:

Can someone talk some sense to the probable buyer? (Yes he is in love, rightly so) and the truth to the seller? The last I checked Hagerty  doesn't have a category for 50 year old BMWs with altered ViNs. Yes could be an awesome daily when built but at the end of the day you have a outlaw (this ain't no 356). Beautiful paint and boxes of spares don't mean alot. Original ViNs are highly underrated. I doubt this shop wants it's name advertised. 

 

I agree.

 

From a practical standpoint, a titled car with chassis VIN and VIN tag is not going to be questioned or examined, unless the VIN swapper is indicted for operating a car theft and VIN-swapping ring and decides to tell all!  But many (most? all?) states would require assignment of a new VIN to a re-bodied car and/or a branded title of some sort, e.g., "remanufactured," "salvaged", etc.

 

Moreover, I would strenuously object to tups suggestion above, to better conceal the fraud by making additional modifications to the chassis.  Ever since President Nixon, Americans have a saying "It's not the crime, it's the coverup" that seals one's fate!

 

The highest and best resolution -- and, I'm confident, the most expensive -- would be for someone to purchase the freshly painted car (a.k.a., "New VIN 1505146"), the gutted '66 shell (likely, "Original VIN 1505146"), and the original engine (I'm assuming it's engine number 1505146), and restore Original VIN 1505146.  You'd wind up with a two-owner '66.  And anything can be restored: it's just a matter of time and money -- did I mention the money?

 

Not sure I ever expressed love for the car, interest certainly, but walking away has always been in the picture.  With all the questions of origin and how /why / what is really happening with these two cars, walking away is becoming more likely.  I agree that unless there is some miraculous story behind all this, that the painted car with the incorrect / swapped VIN is forever tainted.  At least tainted to the purist / collector / in a value sense.  I don't think SC will ever notice, or care to notice.  People (and/or potential buyers) not knowledgeable with the finer points of a '66 versus a '68 or '69 may not really care either - and they won't know too.  At the right price point, I might not really care either - put it back together with the dodgy VIN and enjoy it, or stuff a S14 into it and drive the wheels off it.  Certainly the value of the package continues to fall with each passing inconsistency.        

 

All this being said, I'm not a professional or even experienced amateur restoration guy.  I've actually never done a restoration project until earlier this year when a disused '74tii feel into my lap.  Yes, BMW does make cars (actually SUVs) in SC, but where I live (population 7,768) most people own a Detroit based classic.  Last car show I attended had 186 entrants of which 3 were foreign (really).  So after finding a '74tii in someone's garage 5 minutes from my house, and then finding a 1600 (actually 2 of them) 10 minutes from my house - is sort of like being struck by lightening twice while on the moon.

 

Talking truth to the seller will eventually happen.  Right now I've only spoken to him on the phone for about 10 minutes.  I don't see having any conversation about this on the phone with the owner - this is an in person conversation.  I'm not sure of the body shop's involvement because I'm not sure of how - it what state - these cars arrived.  The VIN funny business could of been done before arrival, or after arrival and by the shop where it presently sits.  I'll find out more about how these cars where brought to him this weekend.  No guarantees I'll get the truth, but it should be another piece in the puzzle.  Slow and friendly is what I've learned since I've moved to SC.  

 

The expensive - put it all back together as it originally was - option is really not an option for me.  I don't have metal working skills, and I'm not going to spend the time and money to acquire them.  My "garage time" is a limited resource, and learning metal work is something outside of that time budget.  That leaves the pull the steamer trunk full of cash out, but I seem to have misplaced my baggage ticket for that item.  So my play is to decide if owning a tainted VIN 1600 for pure enjoyment is something I want to pursue.

 

Either way, its excellent to have such an insightful and diverse resource as this board to listen and learn from.       

 

[Fatherof3]

I have no problem with someone that knows what they are getting (if that is possible here) finishing and enjoying the car. There just needs to be full disclosure if sold. The street rod industry is full of fiberglass bodies on reproduction frames that are titled as a 32,34,etc. and prospective buyers are thrilled that it is. Lots of classic trucks are are built from three or more donors and maybe only one came with a title so that's the title you use.

 

Just be honest and have fun and if that's to much of a reach then a dedicated track car with a Tilton master cylinder

Edited December 13, 2017 by Fatherof3

[Mike Self]

If you can find (anywhere) the original VIN for the partially restored body, check with South Carolina DMV about how to go about getting an "assembled from parts" title, or a "lost title" title.  We have both options in Ohio, and it's a godsend when you find an abandoned, title-less derelict lurking behind someone's house or a gas station with no plates, registration or title. 

 

By putting the original VIN back on the car you'll solve the "66 vs 68" conundrum and make an honest car.  A "real" 1600ti will have a VIN between 158001 and 1588870, so your '66 shell isn't one.  But perhaps someone will want to undertake the challenge of restoring it, while you enjoy the other one...

 

cheers, and good luck

 

mike

 

[73tiiDavidPA]

3 hours ago, Fatherof3 said:

I have no problem with someone that knows what they are getting (if that is possible here) finishing and enjoying the car. There just needs to be full disclosure if sold.

 

Totally agree.  This is what gives me concern about purchasing it - potential difficulty and/or issues when selling it and the obvious affect on price.  

 

1 hour ago, mike said:

If you can find (anywhere) the original VIN for the partially restored body, check with South Carolina DMV about how to go about getting an "assembled from parts" title, or a "lost title" title.  We have both options in Ohio, and it's a godsend when you find an abandoned, title-less derelict lurking behind someone's house or a gas station with no plates, registration or title. 

 

By putting the original VIN back on the car you'll solve the "66 vs 68" conundrum and make an honest car. 

 

Thanks Mike, I'll hunt around SC DMV website and see what's available as options.  SC has some unusual laws on the books, so you never know.    

 

 

[Dudeland]

Ok here is how you make this work

 

Get an endoscope, tell the guy you will buy it if the vin hasn't been swapped.  In order for you to ensure the vin hasn't been swapped, you will have to drill a hole and see the backside of the plate. Job done. 

[Slavs]

That car appears to be a 68.

The brake master cylinder is the longer style, verses the shorter version found on the 66-67. The style pictured is most commonly found on 68 cars.

The steering wheel is also 68 specific. It has more parts and is better built compared to the 69.

The interior door mechanism is not 66-67. It is the shorter style first introduced in 68.

If I can see a picture of the engine compartment looking forward, I can ascertain this car to be a 68.

This is not a 66 or 67 car. It has the 66 - 67 bumpers, but those are just bolt on. Many 66 cars did not come equipped with rocker trim, and the pictured car has the trim tabs installed. Rocker trim was standard from 67 on.

But, that car appears to be very solid and clean. I would certainly not shy away from it as long as the title is clean.

And, please don't drop an M3 motor in it along with 15" wheels, etc.

As far as I'm concerned, that car would be an easy assembly.

[73tiiDavidPA]

6 hours ago, Slavs said:

That car appears to be a 68.

 

Yes, from other posts and the 1600 Bible site, no holes in the rear seat wall and a center latch hole on the cowl.  Unfortunately it appears that sometime in the past someone has welded a '66 VIN into the fender.  

 

6 hours ago, Slavs said:

The brake master cylinder is the longer style, verses the shorter version found on the 66-67. The style pictured is most commonly found on 68 cars.

The steering wheel is also 68 specific. It has more parts and is better built compared to the 69.

The interior door mechanism is not 66-67. It is the shorter style first introduced in 68.

 

6 hours ago, Slavs said:

This is not a 66 or 67 car. It has the 66 - 67 bumpers, but those are just bolt on. Many 66 cars did not come equipped with rocker trim, and the pictured car has the trim tabs installed. Rocker trim was standard from 67 on.

 

Thanks for all the details / knowledge on the small subtle differences.

 

6 hours ago, Slavs said:

But, that car appears to be very solid and clean. I would certainly not shy away from it as long as the title is clean.

And, please don't drop an M3 motor in it along with 15" wheels, etc.

 

Title and condition - that's the question / issue.  I only spoken to the owner for about 10 minutes on the phone, and the shop owner say the owner has a clean SC title.  I'm assuming it matches the VIN and will be listed as a '66 - and that it the bad point seeing the car in certainly not a '66.  So with a tainted title - car not matching the year listed (an assumption), I don't feel overly strongly about keeping it "original" - though I'm still on the fence about that.  This all assumes that the owner doesn't think he has a pile of gold and wants some unreasonable price.  

 

6 hours ago, Slavs said:

As far as I'm concerned, that car would be an easy assembly.

 

Ha!  You are a better person than me.  As a totally lost without this board amateur, this task would be a long, slow process.  Certainly do-able with everyone's help from the FAQ, and it would be enjoyable.  Easy, perhaps not, at least for me.  But I appreciate the encouragement.  

 

6 hours ago, Slavs said:

If I can see a picture of the engine compartment looking forward, I can ascertain this car to be a 68.

 

Not sure if these shots will work or not, but they are additional to the ones I already posted.  

 

   

[Slavs]

My first 02 was a 68 1600. And what we are looking at is a 68 1600. It is not a 68 2002, but definitely a 68 1600. The battery tray mounting location appears high vs. low. 66-67 cars had the battery tray sitting low just above the frame rail. These battery trays are slightly smaller as they are meant to hold 6 volt batteries. The 68 battery tray sits higher and is slightly larger as it is designed for the 12 volt batteries. A lot of work has been done on that chassis. If all new bushings and tie rods have been installed, then it's another bonus. The brake lines appear new. There are very few purists in the 02 world where most 02s have been modified to some extent. Other than the 66 VIN, that car appears to have been modified little. Those are 5/12 x 13 ET19 320i steel wheels. They work well with these cars along with the 185/70 x 13 tires. They retain the classic look of the car.  I would drop in a motor, add some oversize sway bars and call it a day. You can also go with mild aftermarket springs. The car will look like a classic, but with improved handling. A stock engine is just fine as it runs smooth and offers good mileage and driveability.

If the price is right, I would grab that car. I don't know if I would ask the owner about the VIN. If you do, avoid confrontation. I would personally tell him that the car is obviously not a 66, nor is it a 67, but rather a 68. But, it's still appears to be a very clean and solid car. He may be flexible with you by lowering the price, or he may try to pass off the car as a 66 to somebody else. But there is no way this guy can bamboozle us. One of my cars is a 69, but I installed the 67-dash, and I remounted an early 66-68 the door mirror to the 66-67 location at the front of the door. I also installed the early low-back seats from a 68. I prefer the cleaner early look. But, what is the motive behind installing early VIN tabs and numbers ?? That's simply dishonest and wrong. Knowing all of this, be careful, but try to get this car if it does not have hidden rust and if the price is right. If you drop in a 2 liter, you should change the diff to the 3.64. The 2 liter does not work well with the 1600 4.11 diff unless you install a 5 speed OD from a 320i. In other words, there is more work involved than meets the eye if you install a 2 liter in an early 1600. I would install a healthy rebuilt 1600cc motor.

 

Good Luck, and let us know what the owner has to say.

[dasfrogger]

While weird, if the vin on the car matches the vin on a clear title i think it's worth buying. Looks like a very nice start to a project in the photos.

 

I think if you're honest about what it is to whoever may buy it in the future you'll be fine. Sure it's not going to fetch the same as something "bonafide", but for the right price it won't need to.

 

Plus, i like to try and frame things from a time when what we did to these cars wasn't about money or future value (because it wasn't like it is today) and remember that we did crazy stuff for the fun of the cars. Do it. have fun!

[dbmw2002]

Steve &  David, this car is very interesting. I didn't mean to open a can of worms but here's what I got. 

Steve, the restored painted car ( roller) is obviously not a 66 1600, my point is the remote brake booster is not stock 68 1600, my reference is my own 68  1600. Which has the same booster as a 2002, not a remote booster as installed. If said booster was installed by vin grabbers it would of involved trading brake lines, in my opinion not likely. The ti hint was if that booster was from the roller it was not a carb model. If it came from doner car it was a lot of work. 

David, the key is the vin on the roller, junkyards can hold a lot of mysteries. You need the vin from roller to make it legit. I've only 30 years into 02s but have never seen one without a block, these are not Corvette motors. Find the block in the yard and I bet the filleted vin is in the scrap pile along with the seasoned engine. Talk to the crew there, claim you need the tranny, you never know what the junkyard dog is hiding. 

What if said roller was from North of the border? Might explain a lot?