engine and drivetrain New cnc machined roller rockerarm for M10/M30 by dynotech.se

[02robert]

Hi,

My name is Robert Karlsson, and I run a engine/dyno shop in Sweden called Dynotech. You might recognize my 740whp M10 powred 1602 turbo here on 2002faq.

I have been testing and working on making a decent good rockerarm that will actually work and not cost an arm and one leg. There is a gap of decent rockerarms, there are alot of rockers out there and none of them are 100% ... I have tested them all, and will not tell any brands or names to seem partial, but if you need to know just PM me. The rockerarm costruction is tho a comprimise. I don't like compromises (for you who have seen my engine know that). There is possible to make a good and strong rockerarm with right material and radius on the pads, but the wearing problem will still be there. To hot oil, less decent oil or strong valvesprings and high revs, diffrence in base cicles etc etc. Therefor to overcome these problems the best solusion on this problem is a roller rocker. And this will not be some 3rd party rocker, my thoughts when making this rocker is to call it "the rockerarm" it will replace everything out there on the market. Well it sounds cocky but when you put alot of work time and effort into making a new rockerarm, why not go 110% ? So what is the benefits with a roller rockerarm compared to a OEM? With the right size and position of the roller will give us better rockerarm geometry, better valve curve, you can use less valve clearance = less valve sound, no wearing problems at all it also support more springpressure whitch is needed to rev 10-11.000rpms without valvefloat and wearing problems. My rockerarm will also support more valve lift (15+ mm), in short terms you can make a camshaft with less duration and more valvelift = a better camshaft, more low and midend torque and more peak power.

So why have not anyone already done this?

First of, its very hard to calculate the optimum rocker geometry and to know the best and most optimized roller size etc, and last to actually have machines to make it. 2nd and the biggest problem, most engine shops have a analog camshaft grinder whitch means that you have to make a master camshaft for each model of camshafts you want to make. This makes its very expensive to make small batches of diffrent camshafts.

I have access to a cnc camshaft grinder and that gives me the possibility to make make camshfts without any masters. That means I can make just one custom camshaft and the cost is about the same. This also means that if you want to use these rockerarms and you are already very pleased with you're camshaft I can tell me what cam it is or if its custom I will copy it in my camshaft measurment equipment and send the caminfo to the cnc grinding machine and it will recalculated the acceleration, valvelift, duration and open/close timing for my roller rockers geometry. I have designed 4 N/A camshafts and 4 turbo camshafts that will be in stock.

Or I can help you with making you a custom camshaft after you're setup.

The rocker itself is made in a 5axis cnc milling machine, the valve adjustment is the famous porsche adjustment screw with a custom milled fastning nut in titanium. The inner roller bearing ring will be machined in titanium also the roller axle will be in TI to make it as strong as possible but still as light as possible to have it support over 10000rpms as my engine revs. Also another feature that will come with this design is that you can change the camshaft without moving you're rockerarms, you will just simply remove the rollers (just with locking clip) and you can take out the camshafts just pulling it forward, very time saving for me when testing all camshafts in my dyno for example.

Everyting is drawed and simulated with 10 diffrent roller sizes and diffrent positions in our special valve geomety cad progaram CAD software to find the most optimized roller size and position and pattern. I have worked on every little detail nothing is left for chance, enither in material or drawing and tolerances. the cnc machine have a tolerance of 0.0005-0.001" ..

The final have a bit bigger roller becouse that gives me better valve curve geometry and less negative radius on the camshaft, but less ratio and that compensates with a little smaller base circle.

This rocker have been tested hours in my dyno to make sure it really works and will last.

My goal is to be able to sell one M10 kit of these highend exotic roller rockers for around 1000usd. And a custom steel camshaft for around 500.

Since these rockers have been made to be able to handle more valve lift I'm working on a very cool split cam solution for those who does not want to make their cambearings bigger in the cylinderhead to reach more than 13mm valve lift. It acutally means that the camshaft will be in 2 peaces and you mount it and lock in when both peaces are inline position. This will make you 15-16mm valve lift without modifying you're camshaft bearings.

With standard M10 lenght of valves depends on you're valve guidance height and retainer measurement, will be around 13mm valve lift as max. To solve this I will have valves that a a few mm longer and also longer valveprings support the longer valves. More about this later.

stage one kit)

8x dynotech roller rockerarms

1x camshaft (either a copy of you're existing one or you can choose one of my camshafts that will use the "extra" benefits in valve geometry the roller rocker supports.

stage two kit)

8x dynotech roller rockerarms

8x rockerarm locks

1x custom camshaft (you choose exacly what you want up to 13mm lift

8x dubble valvesprings with CrMo retainers supporting 10000rpms+

stage three kit)

8x dynotech roller rockerarms

8x rockerarm locks

1x custom camshaft split cam 15-16mm lift

8x dubble valvesprings with CrMo retainers supporting 10000rpms+

4x 48 or 50mm intake SS valves with longer shaft.

4x 39mm SS or inconel for turbo valves with longer shafts

This technique can easly be moved to M30 and M20 engine also.

Is there anyone intressted in taking you're M10 engine to the next level with these rockers ?

[skipsfcr]

Really cool product. Roller cams are fabulous.

[Colin]

Holy shit.

[Tommy]

Very impressive stuff Robert. Over the years I have heard many guys talk about making roller rockers for m10 but none to actually realize it. It's great that you have interest to use your effort and competence into developing new things for such an aged engine design as m10.

Very much interested but sadly no resource or budget for racing at the moment. Maybe in future.

Tommy

[AceAndrew]

So why have not anyone already done this?

Very very cool, I can certainly certainly empathize with your enthusiasm.

The main reason there aren't some on the market is simply cost and demand, not engineering prowess. There are flat tappet rockers that have proven reliable for long periods of time at high RPM. When you have a rocker that's proven itself reliable for %98 of the market share then why spend a gross amount of time/money if not for just your own car. These will certainly handle higher rpm's than the flat-tappet but at that point you are left with only a couple of cars across the world that could truly benefit from these awesome rockers, sure there will be a couple that will order them just to say "I've got roller-rockers howabout you?" but I can't think that would be enough of a customer base.

It'll be interesting to see if you can keep it at $1500 for cam and rockers. Are you planning on rear-world testing these for a couple of race seasons to check for any kinks before bringing them to market? Be cool to see these out there, are you working with the guy in Australia who's starting to produce them for the M20?

Be cool to see how this evolves.

[02robert]

So why have not anyone already done this?

Very very cool, I can certainly certainly empathize with your enthusiasm.

The main reason there aren't some on the market is simply cost and demand, not engineering prowess. There are flat tappet rockers that have proven reliable for long periods of time at high RPM. When you have a rocker that's proven itself reliable for %98 of the market share then why spend a gross amount of time/money if not for just your own car. These will certainly handle higher rpm's than the flat-tappet but at that point you are left with only a couple of cars across the world that could truly benefit from these awesome rockers, sure there will be a couple that will order them just to say "I've got roller-rockers howabout you?" but I can't think that would be enough of a customer base.

It'll be interesting to see if you can keep it at $1500 for cam and rockers. Are you planning on rear-world testing these for a couple of race seasons to check for any kinks before bringing them to market? Be cool to see these out there, are you working with the guy in Australia who's starting to produce them for the M20?

Be cool to see how this evolves.

I have not seen any flat tappet rockers for M10 out there. But I have tested my own, to make them stable enough they gain to much weight. You will lose the "variable ratio" and have the ratio static, but thats about it. Its not worth making new camshafts for that. I have tried.

Well I think you're wrong, the main benefit with roller rockers is not only RPM and wearproblem gains. The main thing is the actual valve curve gains. You can make better camshafts in all ranges. Lets see it as an investment, these will last forever, I will promise that.

Ofcource if you run fully stock its not worth change the rockers. But if you're are using 292degree camshaft or more the gains are big not to speak about the reliability. In all racing the reliability is the key of winning

Well this will be low volume high quality european cnc stuff. For reasonable price.

No I'm not working with someone in AU .. Whos that ? Would be intressting to see hes rockers, and inspect how deep he have gone into the geometry and gains/looses of every change...

Well we're tesing it right now in a daily driven turbo car that revs 8000 to get the milage on them... The high rev and hard testing will be at my engine in my dyno http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqZrmsKtiz8&feature=relmfu

Testing will be done november/dec this year.

Best Regards

Robert

[TobyB]

Holy shit.

Pretty much!

Nice.

If you can pull this off for under $2000 us, I'll be impressed.

And opening up the cam bearings in the head's not such a big deal-

the steep ramps you can get with a roller ARE a big deal!

I think what was meant by 'flat tappet' was actually just that the

stock 'sliding friction' cam/rocker combination is pretty darned good-

for what it is. 50 year- old technology!

Of course, the connecting rod guys are going to love you, now that

the rev limit becomes the stock rod bolts...

This will be pretty cool....

t

[NickVyse]

Hi Robert - get this on the UK forum too - quite a few European and Australian enthusiasts over there who don't frequent the faq:

http://www.02forum.co.uk/

and the German site too if you've not done it already.

Great product!

[tim385]

Sounds really interesting.

[nbristow01]

So in terms of a performace gain..what are we looking at? Say I have an engine with 9.5 pistons 1mm oversized and a 284 cam. And say it is pushing 140hp. If I install a roller setup with similar cam profile what can I expect to gain in HP? I understand there is less friction, less heat and ease of maintenance but an idea of the hp gain for 1500 is nice to know

[edgefinder]

Bravo for bringing new technology to the old motor. I'm sure the guys who originally designed with a slide rule and a budget would be excited and impresed. I would love to rev my 02 to 9 or 10 thousand without worrying about expensive noises. PM sent.

[nbristow01]

Bravo for bringing new technology to the old motor. I'm sure the guys who originally designed with a slide rule and a budget would be excited and impresed. I would love to rev my 02 to 9 or 10 thousand without worrying about expensive noises. PM sent.

It is really neat to have someone take the time to do this. So I am guessing to optinize the higher revs you would need ARP studs on rods, or even something like Carillo rods, and more fuel for the motor as well? To hear an M10 screaming at 9000RPM would be very nice

[roadhog0]

Built a crazy motor for my truck this summer. With awesome parts like this I may have to build a nuts motor for my 02 now!! Absolutely amazing work man!! When I get out of college I will definitely be getting me a set!!

[FB73tii]

Robert, very cool stuff. I know someone who designs M10 race cams and will be interested in pursuing a cam design for use with your roller rockers in a few years after I sort my current race engine build.

So in terms of a performance gain..what are we looking at? Say I have an engine with 9.5 pistons 1mm oversized and a 284 cam. And say it is pushing 140hp. If I install a roller setup with similar cam profile what can I expect to gain in HP? I understand there is less friction, less heat and ease of maintenance but an idea of the hp gain for 1500 is nice to know

While a roller rocker/cam can be used on any engine, due to the cost I would think this is really for high-end race applications with very high RPMs. I do not expect to regularly rev the race motor I am building (13.5:1, Schrick 336 cam, extensive head porting, 2.2 crank, dry sump, crank fire, expensive rods/pistons/rockers, Haltech engine management, slide throttle, LS-1 coils, ARP rod/main/head fasteners, etc.) much past 8,500. I am sure it will go past 9,000 and hold together with the parts I am using, but the life would be in a few tens of hours rather than the 80-100 hours between rebuilds I am planning. The total price tag on this motor is approaching $20K. A race motor that will rev to 10,000 RPM or above is **very** costly. I know Bill Watson (Road Rockets in Sonoma CA) was working on this type of project for an 8-valve engine a few years back, and he is one of the rare people with M12 knowledge.

When you are talking about a street motor with 140 HP there is no way it flows enough air and can burn enough fuel to spin to 10K. If you held the throttle wide open it would probably just rev at 7K until it went boom. I doubt the torque gain from the roller setup would be worth the money on a street engine. I am interested to hear Robert's response on this.

Best, Fred

[nbristow01]

Robert, very cool stuff. I know someone who designs M10 race cams and will be interested in pursuing a cam design for use with your roller rockers in a few years after I sort my current race engine build.

So in terms of a performance gain..what are we looking at? Say I have an engine with 9.5 pistons 1mm oversized and a 284 cam. And say it is pushing 140hp. If I install a roller setup with similar cam profile what can I expect to gain in HP? I understand there is less friction, less heat and ease of maintenance but an idea of the hp gain for 1500 is nice to know

While a roller rocker/cam can be used on any engine, due to the cost I would think this is really for high-end race applications with very high RPMs. I do not expect to regularly rev the race motor I am building (13.5:1, Schrick 336 cam, extensive head porting, 2.2 crank, dry sump, crank fire, expensive rods/pistons/rockers, Haltech engine management, slide throttle, LS-1 coils, ARP rod/main/head fasteners, etc.) much past 8,500. I am sure it will go past 9,000 and hold together with the parts I am using, but the life would be in a few tens of hours rather than the 80-100 hours between rebuilds I am planning. The total price tag on this motor is approaching $20K. A race motor that will rev to 10,000 RPM or above is **very** costly. I know Bill Watson (Road Rockets in Sonoma CA) was working on this type of project for an 8-valve engine a few years back, and he is one of the rare people with M12 knowledge.

When you are talking about a street motor with 140 HP there is no way it flows enough air and can burn enough fuel to spin to 10K. If you held the throttle wide open it would probably just rev at 7K until it went boom. I doubt the torque gain from the roller setup would be worth the money on a street engine. I am interested to hear Robert's response on this.

Best, Fred

Fred that made pefect sense and thanks. I guess it would be pointless to use on a DD.