High Revs on Start-Up

[BarbaratheIrish2002]

Evening All,

 

I have a 76' 2002 (with mandated emissions system, yes, yay CA). Having pulled it from a field four months back, I've done quite a bit of work to it to get it to a stage where it'll safely run for the first time in a long long time.

 

I FINALLY have spark. I've got good compression. I've ran to ground all bad grounds. I've cleaned out the fire hazard crap in the nooks and crannies, fogging oil down the cylinders and I'm using 2 stroke mix to bottle feed the bowls this first go out. I'm not au fait with carb types (2-barrel Solex?), so I've included a picture here (all vacuum lines are not hooked up, but I didn't think that would contribute to my issue explained below- open to correction on that).

 

Anyway, good news news is it runs, but immediately screams to a high idle. The accelerator is not jammed open. The linkage moves freely. I've tried backing in the throttle stop screw (it was all the way out) but it makes no difference. Next, I thought it's a choke related issue. It appears- according to the Haynes manual: "later models (mine) with emission control systems use a carburetor with an electrically-pre-heated choke in addition to the coolant-heated automatic type choke and float bowl pressure relief return valve". Clear as mud, then (to me, at least).

 

Do I need a perfectly functional emissions controls system AND coolant system (I don't have radiator installed- intention was to just hear it run for a few minutes before it ever gets anywhere near operating temperature- idea being to install radiator and hoses once that's verified) in order for the choke to work correctly (if that's my issue)?? Or perhaps someone else can point me in the right direction.

 

Carb has not been re-built or overhauled. Car does run but it screams to high idle as described. 

 

Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated. 

[2002iii]

That's a Weber carburetor, probably a 32/36. You should at least take the top cover off to make sure the fuel bowl isn't full of sediment.

 

All those open vacuum ports are creating places for air to be sucked in bypassing the carb and causing the motor to rev up.

 

You are going to need to hook up all the emissions stuff eventually to pass smog, so might as well start now.

[John76]

11 minutes ago, 2002iii said:

All those open vacuum ports are creating places for air to be sucked in

The biggest open port is the EGR connection on the manifold. Plug this (for now) along with all the vacuum ports on the manifold.

Let me know when you need help/advice on the smog stuff. I too have a '76 in N. Calif. ☹️

 

[jimk]

With no radiator, the water pump won't be worth much with burned out seal from no coolant.

[Conserv]

I seem to recall that there are (at least) two types of Weber 32/36 carbs for ‘02’s: one does not meet the California Air Resource Board’s (C.A.R.B.’s) standards; the other has been approved by the C.A.R.B, and can thus pass emissions inspection on 1976 models subject to said inspections.

 

The Weber carb on your car — a Solex was factory equipment — looks like it desparately needs a cleaning and overhaul. Now that you’ve gotten the car running, perhaps you want to make certain you’re repairing and/or rebuilding a carb that can pass CA emissions.

 

I am not a CA resident. And everything I know about 1976 ‘02’s and CA emissions inspections was learned from this forum. Thus, members of this forum know far more than I about this topic. And maybe I’m mis-informed. I’d personally, however, hate to spend time working through this particular carb’s issue if it’s not a carb acceptable to the C.A.R.B. I believe that C.A.R.B.-approved Weber 32/36’s are thus identified with a tag.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

[Mark92131]

Your 3 Electro-mechanical valves are on the firewall, but most of the other 76 smog components are missing.  Like @John76 pointed out, the EGR connection to the intake manifold needs to be plugged for now, and later connected to you EGR Valve.  Here's a diagram of the components and how they are connected.

 

Mark92131

 

 

[John76]

A relay and temp switch are needed as well.

Do you have any smog parts? 

If the Weber is CARB approved, you don't need the white electro valve, speed relay or dashpot.

 

[Conserv]

2 hours ago, John76 said:

… If the Weber is CARB approved, you don't need the white electro valve, speed relay or dashpot.

 

Thanks, John.

 

So does this mean that the non-CARB-approved Webers are fine on a California ‘76 as long as you have all of the original emissions equipment?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

[cda951]

5 hours ago, jimk said:

With no radiator, the water pump won't be worth much with burned out seal from no coolant.

 

I agree, you can't do any meaningful diagnosis in this state. Get a proper cooling system going, you need it anyway, then circle back to chasing specific running issues.

[Mark92131]

Smog testing in CA is a crap shoot.  Some test centers are strict and some are pretty lax.  On some of the  76 models I have owned, the strict test centers would start by using the Emission Sticker to verify the presence of all the emission control equipment and if anything was missing, I would fail the visual inspection, but still have to pay for the test, (I have failed for using a non-OEM air filter canister and missing the hose to the summer/winter box).  The lax stations do a quick check that most of the major components are present, but ultimately use the probe in the tail pipe to determine pass and fail.

 

All my 1976 cars had Weber 32/36 carbs, but none had the CARB approved tag.  I just jetted them appropriately for the test and changed the jetting after I passed smog, but I did have all my emissions control equipment installed and connected, with the exception of the dashpot.  The instructions for installing the CARB approved version of the Weber most likely called out that the dashpot for the Solex wasn't going to work with the Weber (unless you are a genius like @John76), so these components could be removed.  I never removed them, just plugged the line on the white electro-mechanical valve, so I wouldn't obviously fail the visual.

 

Finally stopped buying 1976 cars.

 

Mark92131

[John76]

12 hours ago, Conserv said:

So does this mean that the non-CARB-approved Webers are fine on a California ‘76

Steve,

 

I have rarely had a problem passing the visual inspection and never flunked the exhaust emissions test with the Weber 32/36.

I installed my Weber carb many years before the CA smog inspections went into effect (1986), and before Red Line offered a CARB certified version. I did flunk a visual (like Mark92131) because of a missing summer/winter hose, black timing sticker (crinkled up and fell off) and because the tech could not see the retard hose on the distributor (it was there!).  I chose to keep the dashpot installed on the Weber because it makes starting easier and helps reduce/eliminate exhaust smoke on deceleration.

Technically, the smog laws state that "tampering with, altering, removing, or disconnecting ANY factory emissions related system" is strictly prohibited. This applies to ALL vehicles registered in CA .... even pre-'76 cars!  Although the <'76 cars are exempt from the bi-annual smog inspection/test, they are subject to fix-it tickets, smog test and fines if a "not-so-friendly" police officer suspects your car is out of compliance (very rare).

 

John

 

 

[BarbaratheIrish2002]

Update for everyone:

 

First of all, thanks for all the helpful advice. I did go ahead and complete the cooling system completely. Radiator is in, all hoses hooked up. I've also dug out some of the emissions related pipes and components and hooked up as much as I could. Most if not all the vacuum lines are now either hooked up or blocked off.

 

But I fear, it's all in vain. The high revs/pitched noise did not go away. Please have a listen to this audio of a very very brief start-up earlier:

 

And please, PSA, before SOME folks jump down my throat about (potentially) ruining an engine. I bought this non-running, off the road since '95 rough old girl four months ago. It's only this week I've gotten it to spark off briefly, and only these last three starts yesterday and today I've heard this noise- so go easy on me!

 

In my technical speak, it's sounds like it might be f**ked. But perhaps someone out there can tell me different. It's not v-belt related (v-belt was disconnected for this recording as part of trouble-shooting). It sounds like something maybe worse than that...

 

Please tell me I'm wrong.

Edited November 14, 2022 by BarbaratheIrish2002

[John76]

Your audio sounds like you have way too much initial advance. Engine seems to fight itself when cranking.

To be on the safe side, disconnect the vacuum advance and retard on the distributor and set the static timing to TDC.

[2002iii]

Sounds like the starter is not disengaging after start up. Try tapping on the starter solenoid.

[jimk]

I agree with @John76 that the ignition is advanced too much. For now to get it going, retard it some by loosening the bolt a bit at the distributor base enough to rotate the distributor a small amount clockwise and it should start easier.  The idle speed will come down as well because too much advance causes the idle to speed up.

Install the belt so the water pump and alternator turns so it doesn't overheat and the battery doesn't die.