who's up for another round of "guess the sales price?"

[Conserv]

2 hours ago, mike said:

Back in 1971, you really didn't have a choice of interiors if you bought your car through the Hoffman system (here or for European delivery).  Colorado cars came with black interiors and salt & pepper carpets, period.  However, as was pointed out, dealers would (and still will) do most anything for a sale, so somewhere there may be a Nevada or Agave car with a black interior...it would only take an hour or two to swap seats and door cards.

 

And that might explain the chrome vs black recliner mechanism.  BMW seats were made by an outside supplier, and as was typical with BMW, they would use up parts stocks until they ran out.  So if the factory was out of blue seats with chrome recliners, they'd install those with black recliners.  Then if the next car on the assembly line called for tobacco seats and they still had them in stock with chrome recliners, in they went.  All to our confusion 40+ years later.

 

Didn't check the car's VIN, but if it's a 257xxxx above about 2572xxx, it would have long rear bumpers, lower (knee) moulding and rubber trim on the front bumper ends.  But a trapezoid mirror.  Flag mirrors didn't appear in production 'till the 75 model year.

 

Quote:  Mike S. will know but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened during the 1969 model year.  I don't know for sure exactly when the 2 piece wheel covers were swapped for one piece, but it was prior to the "second series" '69s that were produced after 1 Jan '69.  My car (Feb 69 production) came with the one piece wheel covers that were painted in the center.  Only the 68 and 69 cars had those painted wheel covers; it was a bad idea--the paint started peeling after a few months.  Early '68 cars had two piece (painted) wheel covers with oval slots on the trim rings.  They look just like the later one piece wheel covers, and both pieces were stainless steel.  Then there was an even earlier trim ring, made from very soft aluminum with many squared off slots.  I think those were dealer accessories for early 1600s; I've never seen that style on a US spec 2002.  

 

I'm almost sorry to see '02 prices escalating so much and so quickly because 

1.  It's gonna price a lot of enthusiasts (especially young ones) out of the market, abd 

2,  It'll make us current owners think twice about driving such a valuable car on a regular basis...

 

mike

 

 

Thanks, Mike,

 

VIN 2573605, manufactured in May 1971, between May 10 and May 28, according to my (incomplete) records.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

[Conserv]

The primary reason I no longer immediately reject the combination of a Tobacco interior with a Colorado exterior is the early history of Colorado.  Colorado was introduced, on or before November 1968, as a 2002ti-only exterior color.  And, at that time, it was offered with either a Tobacco vinyl-and-cloth interior or a Black all-vinyl interior.

 

The photos below show this offering; they are of the December 1968 global, all-models, paint and upholstery brochure.  Later brochures used a textual concordance table to illustrate the recommended or default interior colors for each exterior color.  But this early brochure shows a single row of exterior colors across the top and the recommended interior colors in columns under each exterior color.

 

I have, but cannot locate, a small French all-models BMW brochure.  This brochure, ca. 1970 if I recall, clearly shows a Colorado 2002ti with a Tobacco interior.  None of this says anything about a specific U.S. 1971 model car.  But it does show that the factory had offered the Colorado-Tobacco combination at one point, and produced examples.

 

Later paint and upholstery brochures pair Colorado with Black-and-Gray vinyl-and-cloth interiors and Black all-vinyl interiors.  The Tobacco option disappears.

 

The combination of the gray-and-black (salt-and-pepper) carpeting and, as Delia pointed out, black recliners still gives me great pause as to the originality of the May 1971 car's interior, layered on top of the oddity of a Tobacco interior with a Colorado exterior. ?

 

I would be pleased if dated seat tags allowed us to confirm or reject the originality of the Tobacco interior!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Conserv

[bimbill]

I'm a little late to this thread but I think it's a fun example of the excellent knowledge base on this forum.  I was discussing this one with a friend who has a small but very impressive collection and we agreed this one will pierce the $30,000 threshold, and rightfully so.  As for the seat color/hinge finish debate, I commented on the chrome hinges over on BAT and no one seemed concerned.  That's a good thing in my opinion.  One of the things I love about the vintage BMW world is that we have yet to go crazy about the originality/value equation on most of the more common cars.  CSLs yes, carbed 02s not so much.  I love old Porsches and I have many friends who own them but if this was a 356 it would be blasted on their forum. 

 

Thinking back on Legends last August, with a couple of exceptions, the best 02s on the grass had some mods.  Tesoro has a Neue Klasse steering wheel and it is a stunning car.

 

By the way, my first BMW was a late '71 with long bumpers and a single solex, so the urge to jump into the bidding is up there.  Then I look at the unfinished 1800 and the even more unfinished Tii, give my self a dope slap and return to surfing this forum.

 

My guess? $3502.00

Edited April 15, 2017 by bimbill

[bob02]

I'll just leave this here.

 

 

[OriginalOwner]

above, Mike wrote:  "2,  It'll make us current owners think twice about driving such a valuable car on a regular basis....."

 

My thought on that:  now just might be the time for me to get that $50K Guaranteed Value policy with Hagerty ......

 

Cheers,

 

Carl

 

 

[conkitchen]

14 minutes ago, bob02 said:

I'll just leave this here.

 

 

So judging from this ad the Colorado cars with tobacco interiors had wooden floors not carpet. 

[t0ddness]

So, I will be going to post this on BaT shortly, but this is what I've been able to determine thus far:

 

I ran a paint depth meter on multiple locations across every panel on the entire car. Everything had a 1.5 to 3.0 reading.  This should satisfy the original paint doubters.

 

To be clear, I don't have any issue with anyone calling me out to prove anything that concerns them about statements I am making. The statements should be accurate and truthful.

 

I was able to locate the cards on the driver seat, both under the seat bottom and behind the seat back. Neither appear to have dates, though I have not removed them from the seat as I was concerned about tearing, they appear to be either glued in or have become one with the seat  I found a card in similar condition under the back seat, did not attempt to remove the rear seat back. I also found a tag behind the seat back on the passenger seat, though am taking a break before continuing my search. I assume there is one under the seat bottom am hoping I can find a date somewhere.

 

I am going to stick with this is the interior as delivered to the original owner, perhaps as shipped from the factory.  The original owner was 50ish when the car was purchased, and he died at around 78. I can't imagine this owner doing an interior swap. I reached out to Peter Pan only this week, though as assumed they have no records that far back. There was a second owner for three months, though here to, I have very little evidence to doubt they did anything to the interior during their 3 months of ownership. I am not done digging into this.

 

I'll be posting any and all evidence for statements above including the paint measurements later today.

[bob02]

54 minutes ago, conkitchen said:

So judging from this ad the Colorado cars with tobacco interiors had wooden floors not carpet. 

 

    Oak, to be specific.

[Conserv]

1 hour ago, t0ddness said:

So, I will be going to post this on BaT shortly, but this is what I've been able to determine thus far:

 

I ran a paint depth meter on multiple locations across every panel on the entire car. Everything had a 1.5 to 3.0 reading.  This should satisfy the original paint doubters.

 

To be clear, I don't have any issue with anyone calling me out to prove anything that concerns them about statements I am making. The statements should be accurate and truthful.

 

I was able to locate the cards on the driver seat, both under the seat bottom and behind the seat back. Neither appear to have dates, though I have not removed them from the seat as I was concerned about tearing, they appear to be either glued in or have become one with the seat  I found a card in similar condition under the back seat, did not attempt to remove the rear seat back. I also found a tag behind the seat back on the passenger seat, though am taking a break before continuing my search. I assume there is one under the seat bottom am hoping I can find a date somewhere.

 

I am going to stick with this is the interior as delivered to the original owner, perhaps as shipped from the factory.  The original owner was 50ish when the car was purchased, and he died at around 78. I can't imagine this owner doing an interior swap. I reached out to Peter Pan only this week, though as assumed they have no records that far back. There was a second owner for three months, though here to, I have very little evidence to doubt they did anything to the interior during their 3 months of ownership. I am not done digging into this.

 

I'll be posting any and all evidence for statements above including the paint measurements later today.

 

Thanks, t0ddness,

 

You have been an excellent steward of this car, and the kind of seller we all should strive to be!

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

[t0ddness]

I was very fortunate to get some of Delia Wolfe's time in person today. I took the 2002 to her for her input on the originality of the paint and interior, and any other tidbits of wisdom I could take away.

 

While I shy away from quoting Delia, nor attempting to make claims on her behalf, I walked away convinced I had her belief the paint was original - mind you not shy of any blemishes as I've already disclosed and would be happy to discuss in greater detail, though perhaps not today.

 

Now about those seats....

 

Again, I am not going to speak for Delia, but I walked away disheartened and of the belief the interior could not have even been sold with the car, as the black hinges came out after the production date.

 

Well, disheartened and prepared to share the news, I drove home my sherbie as the mother in law calls it, now determined to find a date to validate or dispel what I just heard. One of the mantra's I attempt to live by is Trust, but verify, so the passenger seat came out.

 

Thank goodness I did. Passenger seat, under the rear cover, tag clearly stamped 1.4.71 - April fools day 1971. My mother's birthday, and the day I found out I was going to be a father to my wonderful daughter, April. Perhaps a mic drop is in order, but I feel relieved.

 

I realize this doesn't dispel whether it was installed at the dealer or the factory, but at this point, it's period correct, every other receipt is basically accounted for, I want to call it as delivered to the original owner, and it very well could have come from the factory this way. Salt and pepper carpeting and all.

 

I'll post the picture of the tag and the video of paint measurements to BaT shortly...

 

Thank you all, especially Steve for assisting me in getting over this latest hub.

Edited April 15, 2017 by t0ddness

[Conserv]

3 hours ago, t0ddness said:

I was very fortunate to get some of Delia Wolfe's time in person today. I took the 2002 to her for her input on the originality of the paint and interior, and any other tidbits of wisdom I could take away.

 

While I shy away from quoting Delia, nor attempting to make claims on her behalf, I walked away convinced I had her belief the paint was original - mind you not shy of any blemishes as I've already disclosed and would be happy to discuss in greater detail, though perhaps not today.

 

Now about those seats....

 

Again, I am not going to speak for Delia, but I walked away disheartened and of the belief the interior could not have even been sold with the car, as the black hinges came out after the production date.

 

Well, disheartened and prepared to share the news, I drove home my sherbie as the mother in law calls it, now determined to find a date to validate or dispel what I just heard. One of the mantra's I attempt to live by is Trust, but verify, so the passenger seat came out.

 

Thank goodness I did. Passenger seat, under the rear cover, tag clearly stamped 1.4.71 - April fools day 1971. My mother's birthday, and the day I found out I was going to be a father to my wonderful daughter, April. Perhaps a mike drop is in order, but I feel relieved.

 

I realize this doesn't dispel whether it was installed at the dealer or the factory, but at this point, it's period correct, every other receipt is basically accounted for, I want to call it as delivered to the original owner, and it very well could have come from the factory this way. Salt and pepper carpeting and all.

 

I'll post the picture of the tag and the video of paint measurements to BaT shortly...

 

Thank you all, especially Steve for assisting me in getting over this latest hub.

 

Yeow!!!  That is so utterly cool!

 

To me that's a (good) "Oh Sh*t" moment.  The coincidence of an April 1971 seat in a May 1971 car makes it virtually impossible to deny the likelihood the car and interior have spent the last 46 years together.

 

Thanks for sleuthing it out!

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Conserv

[OriginalOwner]

An interesting question:  that tag under the seat.

 

IN GENERAL, do you guys think all seats are thus tagged with a date stamp ??  In other words, were I to remove my '74tii passenger seat (which I absolutely know has never ever been removed from the car), would I find a date-stamped tag under there somewhere ??  To quote Conserv,  " Yeow!!!  That is so utterly cool! "

 

Cheers,

 

Carl

 

[t0ddness]

I have no idea, but I can tell you what I experienced

 

So, let's use Steve's picture below for reference:

 

 

I assume you can see both tags. The card with the green lettering seems glued to the seat, the tag that is attached to spring moves more freely, though I didn't try to remove it.

I saw as pictured above on my driver and passenger seat bottoms. None of those had dates.

Under my rear bench I found only the green card. I thought I could make out a 1971 date, but it was awfully garbled and a lot of bleeding from the seat made it less than desirable to declare I had evidence of the seat build date. I do have a photo, but it's unnecessary now.
Then I chose to remove the passenger seat, as I was getting tired of trying to get to the tag on the spring. Once out of the car, I figured out it did not have a date and went for the seat back. After removing the screws I was able to get to the card and saw what I will show below:

Edited April 15, 2017 by t0ddness

[Conserv]

13 hours ago, OriginalOwner said:

An interesting question:  that tag under the seat.

 

IN GENERAL, do you guys think all seats are thus tagged with a date stamp ??  In other words, were I to remove my '74tii passenger seat (which I absolutely know has never ever been removed from the car), would I find a date-stamped tag under there somewhere ??  To quote Conserv,  " Yeow!!!  That is so utterly cool! "

 

Cheers,

 

Carl

 

 

Carl,

 

I've consistently found dated tags on round taillight cars.  Not every tag on a given car will be dated, but you can generally find a few dated examples on each car.  I've looked at far fewer square taillight seats and usually don't see dated tags.  My experience is not statistically meaningful.

 

Carpets are another story.  I haven't found dates on round taillight carpets but I almost always find them on original square taillight "one-piece" carpets: one date appears on the primary piece, another on the piece that covers the bulkhead under the rear seat cushion.

 

Photos of my '76's carpet below.  The two components are dated April 12, 1976 ("12.4.76") and April 14, 1976 ("14 APR 1976").  The car was manufactured April 23, 1976.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Conserv

[Conserv]

1 hour ago, t0ddness said:

I have no idea, but I can tell you what I experienced

 

So, let's use Steve's picture below for reference:

 

 

I assume you can see both tags. The card with the green lettering seems glued to the seat, the tag that is attached to spring moves more freely, though I didn't try to remove it.

I saw as pictured above on my driver and passenger seat bottoms. None of those had dates.

Under my rear bench I found only the green card. I thought I could make out a 1971 date, but it was awfully garbled and a lot of bleeding from the seat made it less than desirable to declare I had evidence of the seat build date. I do have a photo, but it's unnecessary now.
Then I chose to remove the passenger seat, as I was getting tired of trying to get to the tag on the spring. Once out of the car, I figured out it did not have a date and went for the seat back. After removing the screws I was able to get to the card and saw what I will show below:

 

I'm still smiling, t0ddness!  Thanks for posting the photo.

 

The green NAUE tags are tags for the horsehair pads (a.k.a., gummihar).  They are generally glued to the original pads. The PARA tags are wired to the springs.  I don't know if they represent solely the springs, the frame, or the entire half of the completed seat!

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Conserv