brakes 1600-2 BBK Options...

[arminyack]

So I have been hatching my plans for the eventual big brake upgrade for the stock system on my 1600. I am less than thrilled with the brake performance on my current set up (stock...with a custom pedal box that has a e21 master cylinder and an aftermarket remote booster) so I am eager to get the upgrade going, especially since I aquired the Alfa Giulia....the brakes on it are fabulous. So, here is what I had planned.

 

Fronts: '77 e21 vented Rotors

           Volvo Calipers

Rears: e21 250mm drum upgrade.

 

From what I understand, the calipers are a bolt on fit...BUT I do hear they sit too high off the rotor, which will exacerbate the interference problem they currently have with my 13" wheels (and no! I wont go with 14" or 15"!). I know the calipers already need a bit of grinding to make them not interfere, and not knowing exactly where they will land once I install them makes this a bit of an unknown on whether I can pull it off without removing too much material from the caliper? I hear that IE modifies the bolt locations on the kit they sell to address this.

Then there is the fact that the Volvo calipers are two line, and the 1600 is a one line caliper car. I planned to address this with a T fitting to split the line.

 

THEN I found Aluminum Brembo Alfa calipers off a Twinspark Alfa on ebay for $200. These are now in my hands....needing a rebuild...but what direction should I go!? The Brembo units are a single line solution, and LIGHT!....but as I understand need the rotors turned down by 6mm to clear them....and the pad area isn't nearly as big as the Volvo ones are...but the Vovlo calipers are mucho heavier...and will the 250mm e21 rear upgrade be a good match!?

 

So things are fuzzy for me on what direction to go with the fronts! If anyone here with good experience on brake upgrades can chime in here, Id appreciate it!

Edited October 25, 2016 by arminyack

[MOJOJOY]

any pics of said calipers? I believe that's my current setup. Will post pictures in a bit...

[M3M3]

sacrificing rotor mass and brake pad area for a slightly lighter caliper is not a formula to improve brake performance.

 

 do not mess with trying to customize rotors.  you will not notice the extra weight of the calipers (unless you are a professional driver trying for the last 0.1 second drop in lap time somewhere.)

 

and the MOST IMPORTANT way to make your brakes work better is to put real brake pads in them.

Edited October 25, 2016 by mlytle

[tjones02]

OK, what year is your 1600? Is is a two piston caliper or four?

 

I don't believe the Volvo calipers will work on the struts that came with two piston calipers, but The '77 320i/323i ones and Alfa ones will, for use of the vented rotor upgrade.

 

With the struts that came with four piston calipers, the Volvo setup will work great.

 

I'll second the advice to get really good brake pads, but the brake bias will work best with standard shoes in those 250mm drums, unless you add a brake bias valve to the rear brake pipe.

[MOJOJOY]

Mine worked well at track/street. I have some Portefield pads in there paired with big drums.

[AceAndrew]

The lightweight brembos are a neat option.

 

Another option along the same volvo-vein.  Run the 13" Wilwood setup.  You are still using the e21 master and rotors, while losing some weight and gaining a bit more clearance.  

[M3M3]

The single vs two piston/line points are right on.  Mojo...can you use stock 320 rotors?  Good variety of pads available in that shape? 

 

+1 on Andrews ie wilwood suggestion. 

[arminyack]

Momojoy, I hae the same calipers you do:

 

Here is the Hawk brake pad I have for the volvo caliper held up to the Brembo caliper for comparison

 

 

 

Andrew: probably the only reason I didn't go Wilwood was the cost..however, I am now considering calling IE and seeing if I can buy the mounting brackets separately, instead of the whole kit

 

mlytle: I was leaning towards the Volvo set up after i found the Brembo calipers..I thought Id see what other with this set up think of it....plus...I just couldn't pass up the deal on the brembos! Although the savings on unsprung weight is attractive, who am I trying to kid....this is a street car!

Edited October 25, 2016 by arminyack

[Tommy]

IMO the Brembos would pair up nicely with your light 13" wheels especially if you still have 1600cc engine in your car. I think they are very close to e21 320-323i calipers only that they were cast iron. They also need that same 6mm off the disc when installed to 02 strut. The improvement is considerable comparing to original 2-piston calipers of -02.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Tommy

[NickVyse]

13 hours ago, arminyack said:

So I have been hatching my plans for the eventual big brake upgrade for the stock system on my 1600. I am less than thrilled with the brake performance on my current set up

 

I'd say the most important question is what do you find less than thrilling about your current set-up? Spongey pedal? Do they fade with abuse? I've had lots of different 'upgraded' set-ups and am always pleasantly surprised by the stock brakes in my early 1600-2 (with a small remote servo). 

[arminyack]

2 hours ago, NickVyse said:

 

I'd say the most important question is what do you find less than thrilling about your current set-up? Spongey pedal? Do they fade with abuse? I've had lots of different 'upgraded' set-ups and am always pleasantly surprised by the stock brakes in my early 1600-2 (with a small remote servo). 

I think may main grip has to do with what I did when I upgraded to a 5-speed. my car has the early remote booster with the brake MC attached to the back of the pedal box, and was equipped with a mech. clutch. When i did the conversion, I cut the back out of the pedal box, and put in an e21 brake MC and a 02 clutch MC. The e21 brake MC has its mounting flanges on the horizontal...while old, leaking 1600 brake MC has the flanges mounted at 45° angles. The effect this has was I couldn't mount the e21 brake MC in the same location because the mounting flanges foul on the body of the clutch MC....and since the clutch MC cannot move any farther to the outboard side if the car....my only option was the move the e21 brake MC higher that the original MC location..which has cost me a reduced pedal ratio...which means I need to push harder! The setup right now really gives me a leg workout...and the pedal is rock hard! I am going to experiment more with a  Wilwood MC I have, which will fit in the old location, but has a small ID (~16mm bore; stock 1600-2 was 20mm) I'm not too sure on how that will roll with upgraded brakes.

Edited October 25, 2016 by arminyack

[MOJOJOY]

@mlytle I'm using Porterfield race e21 pads. Haven't bought rotors in a while but I believe they're e21 as well! I remember IE selling this as a kit long time ago! 

[NickVyse]

5 hours ago, arminyack said:

I think may main grip has to do with what I did when I upgraded to a 5-speed. my car has the early remote booster with the brake MC attached to the back of the pedal box, and was equipped with a mech. clutch. When i did the conversion, I cut the back out of the pedal box, and put in an e21 brake MC and a 02 clutch MC. The e21 brake MC has its mounting flanges on the horizontal...while old, leaking 1600 brake MC has the flanges mounted at 45° angles. The effect this has was I couldn't mount the e21 brake MC in the same location because the mounting flanges foul on the body of the clutch MC....and since the clutch MC cannot move any farther to the outboard side if the car....my only option was the move the e21 brake MC higher that the original MC location..which has cost me a reduced pedal ratio...which means I need to push harder! The setup right now really gives me a leg workout...and the pedal is rock hard! I am going to experiment more with a  Wilwood MC I have, which will fit in the old location, but has a small ID (~16mm bore; stock 1600-2 was 20mm) I'm not too sure on how that will roll with upgraded brakes.

 

so, essentially the actual brake set Up (pad and disk`) has nothing to do with you it. 

[arminyack]

6 minutes ago, NickVyse said:

 

so, essentially the actual brake set Up (pad and disk`) has nothing to do with you it. 

Maybe...or maybe not. I wasn't really happy with it before I did anything either! But its been a while....and my memory is hazy

Edited October 25, 2016 by arminyack