engine and drivetrain Head Rebuild Costs- I don't think I can sit down right now...

[2002Scoob]

He was pretty aprehensive about giving full verbal estimates, and, even thou I requested an estimate several times, I never got one.  He'd give small quotes, like '50 euro per valve machining'  'XX percentage added for parts he had to order' but never the big stuff.

 

He came highly recommended from an old coworker from Freiburg, where I live, so maybe I was a bit too trusting that he would be fair. 

 

From what I'm gathering from the responses, I'm on the end of a budget custom "race' motor. That S14 cost was a kick in the gut..... I should have gotten a junker S14 head and gone that route at this price :/

 

I'm going to talk to him this afternoon hopefully If i can get my work done.

Edited June 16, 2016 by 2002Scoob

[kbmb02]

7 hours ago, 2002Scoob said:

Also, should the Ireland HD rockers require grinding and polishing?? I was under the impression they good to go out of the box and are shot-peened for strength

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Ireland HD rocker arms don't likely 'require' grinding and polishing, and I think Jeff would say they don't. However, given that rocker arms have long-been the (an?) Achilles heel of the M10 cylinder head in performance/race applications, doing a full race prep on the rockers adds confidence at minimum and likely some reliability advantage as well. As a data point, I profile, grind and have them shot-peened again with hardware installed (shot peening with the 'arms' pinched).

 

Porting and polishing could take 1/2 hour per port, depending on level and quality. Rocker locks - done carefully - take more time than installation with the tension springs (think about it: that's 16 parts to check, clean well and 16 small fasteners to clean and install with thread lock at the 'right' clearance from the rocker arm). Measuring springs, whether new or used, shows attention to detail.

 

The guy was thorough, as has been suggested the issue may come down to a mis-match of expectations and budget. Hope the conversation goes well. -KB

 

 

[dang]

Is there any competition around there?  In my area of CA it runs around $500.  The last head I had worked on was off of an M56 '03 325i.  Decked, welded a crack and replaced about four valves and reassembled ready to go when I picked it up.  $475.  The shop does a LOT of euro stuff... VW/Audi, BMW, Mercedes, so I guess its easy for them.

[avoirdupois]

 

FWIW?

 

Unless you are born “in the business” most of us have to enroll in “the school of hard knocks” before understanding the value of parts and labor.  (Still, there are often circumstances that may skew any notion of reasonable value.)

 

This forum is full of over-payment and giveaway deal stories.  The same with honest misunderstandings and uh, er,  misrepresentations.  It is the reason for the clockwork-like posts regaling (and denouncing) uber-high Ebay auctions.  It is a possible justification for why a Rolex certified repairman fixing a Swatch watch in Geneve might charge substantially more for the same service than a self-taught apprentice repairman in Sri Lanka.  Its why some dentists charge substantially more for a crown Jacksonville than others in Juarez.

 

It is hard to determine what is a reasonable cost in Freiburg versus Aachen or Dusseldorf or Tacoma.  We know nothing of your mechanic’s overhead or his experience, both of which might command substantially more euros than similar services offered in the outskirts of Bucharest.  Nor have you told us if he is hungry for more business or planning soon to retire on his Argentine ranch.  Beyond all of this, only you know what you agreed upon or what you think you agreed upon.  As others have suggested, you may have taken certain things for granted (like keeping costs to a minimum) while your mechanic took your inclusion of aftermarket rockers and porting and polishing as a green flag to perform the best work - at any cost.  In other words, what is reasonable to him may not be reasonable to you.

 

What would you say to a $4,500 four-speed transmission rebuild of a 2002 in 1982?  Or a $6,500 so-called engine rebuild where the engine’s seals (front, rear and oil pan) all leaked within two weeks of installation - in 1985?  (The alleged factory-trained mechanic from Stuttgart claimed “they all do that.”)  Chances are, some instances like this can result in loss of business.  Some business people care, others not so much.

 

BTW, IMHO, the price charged for the head rebuild is probably high even for Zurich or Midtown Manhattan.  However, you may not have provided all the facts, e.g., each valve and seat is a one-of-a-kind titanium-iridium alloy requiring special cutting equipment or, that each part was x-rayed and received several independent inspections in Reykjavik and Dallas.  Since you mentioned porting and polishing - that involves both science and art.  It could involve expensive seat-of-the pants knowledge obtained at Smokey Yunick’s shoulder and/or expensive flow testing equipment bearing the Bugatti/PatA.logo.  It could also involve a shade tree mechanic with one flathead screwdriver, a drill and sandpaper.  As the wise kmb02 suggested, it takes both time and knowledge to measure each valve spring height and tension, let alone compensate for any deviations among them.  (Were some valves shimmed?)  You also mentioned heli-coil repair for a spark plug thread.  This could be a simple repair with the head on a work bench, or it could be far more complicated if, for example, the mechanic found radial cracking. (We recently noticed an old head with some alleged racing heritage.  It appeared that the plug threads had all been welded and re-cut due to the obvious color differences in the surrounding metal.  Perhaps it was even stronger than the factory original and who knows what the "reasonable" cost of those modifications.might have been.)

 

Bottom line, since you obviously don’t plan on repeat business with this shop, get a detailed explanation for the services.  It is the very least you deserve at the quoted price.  Another thought, post some pictures of the finished head and you may receive even more varied opinions from this community.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Other explanations for a hefty charge?

 

Recent falling out with the mechanic's daughter?  Refusal to taste the mechanic's wife's left over schnitzel?  That co-worker from Freiburg is really really really old?  Your rear window displays a Manchester United decal?  You treated your car with seafoam while waiting for the mechanic to get off the phone?   You have a tattoo with the name "rimspoke" - in lower case letters?  You told the mechanic he should learn how to use the forum's search function before determining any prices?      .  .  .  .  . 

Edited June 16, 2016 by avoirdupois

[2002Scoob]

Great response. 

 

IF you're a shade-tree mechanic, or a watch-maker, typically your hourly rates dictate the quality and level of work. It should take a competent mechanic around the same time without cutting corners (or heavily padding time spent) to complete the same job. In the US, for most repair services there are repair estimate standards to give mechanics and customers alike a ballpark understanding of the time it should take to do a job. A little shorter, a little longer, fine. And, depending upon the area, overhead, experience, capability, or even Cache, the price per hour varies. 

 

Also, if it takes somebody longer to complete a certain job, typically the cost per hour is less. If they're competent and fast, they're typically more expensive per hour. Rules of efficiency. 

 

Or, at least that's been my long standing general assumption upon economics. The mechanic's hourly rate, I feel is pretty fair. It's the amount of additional hours he's billing thats of contention.

 

In my old bosses' shop there hung this same sign next to the counter, and I think I've seen some variation of it in over half the mechanics i've ever dealt with

 

I need to go tomorrow to check out the work and talk, I was unable to go today. But so far it's feeling like he chose a different sign- Good, Expensive, and Slow. 

 

Edited June 16, 2016 by 2002Scoob

[thehackmechanic]

I just did the E12 head on the '74tii for about $750 to replace the cracked head:

 

--$120 for used bare E12 head of unknown provenance with usable guides in it (it might have been bad, in which case I would've eaten my $120 and tried again)

--$395 for valve job (old and new bare heads brought in to machine shop who transferred valves and springs from old to new head, hot tanked head, did valve job and milled head, put in valves and springs and new seals

--$65 for gasket set

--$140 for rockers and shafts (NOS shafts on eBay, new Febi rockers from ECS Tuning)

--(cam, eccentric hardware, shaft springs and shaft clips reused)

--$20 incidentals

 

That was with me pulling the original head, knocking the shafts out of it to bring it in bare so the valves and springs could be reused, assembling the valve train of the new head myself, and installing it.

 

More than I wanted to pay for just a slap-it-on head, but not bad considering how much was replaced.

 

[2002Scoob]

I feel mildly honored to get a reply from the man himself I just finished your book a few weeks ago. A friend of my mother knows you I guess and recommended it as a Christmas gift

I did not pull the shafts, as I didn't have the proper setup to compress the valve springs. I delivered him a fully assembled head.

Honestly, my original plan was to do it all myself (besides the machining, of course) because the only tool I didn't have was that blasted tool.

For those curious, here's the shot I took of the head back from machinist, before my mechanic started assembly.

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[TobyB]

Quote

This forum is full of over-payment and giveaway deal stories.

 

Where else would we go to make them up?

 

t

 

[Fatherof3]

Maybe why tired M10"s are cheap. New oil pump anyone?

[TobyB]

Ow.  The Genuine feeling is not cheap...

 

t

 

[Simeon]

is it me or does that head (post machining) look like the water ways are somewhat corroded?

[xr4tic]

30 minutes ago, Simeon said:

is it me or does that head (post machining) look like the water ways are somewhat corroded?

 

Typical for an aluminum head on an iron block.  As long as the corrosion isn't in the sealing area of the head gasket, it's not an issue.

[2002Scoob]

40 minutes ago, Simeon said:

is it me or does that head (post machining) look like the water ways are somewhat corroded?

 

They most definitely are... That was something I asked about when I saw it, but he assured me that its fine

 

I was able to go by and talk today and was able to talk a few things out. There was some miss-communication and understanding with the project scope, I'm hopeful that we can work out a fair compromise regarding time spent and pricing.

 

He does take pride in what he does, and does do some really nice work. He specializes in Air-Cooled VW's, you should see his bus, it's insane.

 

In Conversation-

The rockers were not touched. He did, however, polish the original rocker shafts. That's cleared up.

Valves are all re-newed, not replaced, so they're the originals. 

 

What was of contention is that he did end up using the original valve springs, and not ordering/installing the Schrick HD single springs, which is a bit disappointing and we will have to work out. My expressed goals were to have them on this build, so that will have to be rectified. My reasoning for this is that when the time comes that I need or can afford to rebuild the bottom-end, the top is already prepared to handle it. Aka, higher compression pistons and higher RPM's. 

 

A big contributor to the price is the cost of machining, and is something that was out of both of our hands-and higher than both of us anticipated. I can understand this, and will take that hit... Given the need for the exhaust valve seats to be renewed, that did add some unanticipated complexity. 

 

Hoping to work it all out and come to a fair compromise for all parties. 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2016 by 2002Scoob

[2002Scoob]

Here's some shots assembled, for those interested

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Edited June 17, 2016 by 2002Scoob