history and reference sold on BAT...... hi end car....Tii

[NYNick]

Two Tiis, one at $55K and another at $71K. Seriously? The market must be a lot hotter than I would have imagined.

These are not just Tii's. These are highly restored and modified cars and shouldn't be used as comparables...but already are.

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[LJtii]

In the bulk of the car-collecting world, the terms "highly restored" and "modified" are mutually exclusive: they often tend to cancel each other out. Things might be a bit different with 2002s, but maybe not in the long run if they start doing what Porsche 911 prices have done.

 

[SteveJ]

On 6/3/2016 at 10:25 PM, tjones02 said:

 

 

Here's a few shots of one of the times it was in the shop with us.

Wait!

I think I see an E30 M3 diff on the workbench back there!

[tomphot]

I find it interesting that unlike most brands, during the run up in prices, the early Huge sale prices have gone to highly modified examples, not the totally correct ones. 

[kaptanoglu]

16 hours ago, LJtii said:

In the bulk of the car-collecting world, the terms "highly restored" and "modified" are mutually exclusive: they often tend to cancel each other out. Things might be a bit different with 2002s, but maybe not in the long run if they start doing what Porsche 911 prices have done.

 

 

That will be interesting to see.  When we were going through the process with Sputter, it was interesting to see how many mods were going into highly restored examples.... and that there might be a line between "tasteful, appropriate" mods and things that hurt value.  For example, every heavily restored >74 I've seen has switched out their bumpers, most have taken off their side markers (and, perhaps, put on Euro turn signals).  I expect that you don't get dinged for a 5 speed, or a 320i radiator, or a Sanden A/C compressor.  I think that you can do all of those things, and the car still has the original character, and if done professionally, probably helps value for everyone except for someone that wants a museum piece.

 

 

[COOP]

13 hours ago, kaptanoglu said:

...and that there might be a line between "tasteful, appropriate" mods and things that hurt value.  For example, every heavily restored >74 I've seen has switched out their bumpers, most have taken off their side markers (and, perhaps, put on Euro turn signals)...probably helps value for everyone except for someone that wants a museum piece.

 

Quote

 

 

 

I personally don't consider the chrome bumper swap, side-marker light elimination and Euro turn singles as so much of a "modification" per se, as this is the appearance that BMW intended for these square-light cars. The rubber bumpers and side markers were only added to satisfy U.S. safety regulations.

 

COOP

Edited June 6, 2016 by COOP

[Rios2002]

If I had the funds I would buy myself a Tii before the prices go sky hi yet I am perfectly ok with my regular 70 02. 

[tjones02]

Some will say that the $71k sale of this Tii is where the market is right now. While others, like me, believe that while the market is climbing, and quickly, this particular sale was two wealthy people battling it out (with whatever else out) in a very public display of I want this car more than you. And if you watched the last half hour of the auction like I did, you'll understand that to be the truth as well. I also say, let's see when the next high dollar sale occurs and take it from there.

 

If you believe this is the current (today, right now) market then you don't understand how auctions work and don't have the money to throw around like the two high bidders do that took this auction beyond the stratosphere. To them the paltry $71k this car sold for is likely chump change. They and others like them have many much more expensive cars in their collections. They also likely understand all too well what and how much was put into this car to get it to the level it's at. We all hear the mantra "Buy somebody else's restoration." Well folks, this is what happens when someone actually follows the saying.

 

I know this particular car better than 99.9999% of you. A few Big collectors came to look it over in hopes to add it to their collection. Is it worthy of a collection like that? Maybe, if what you want is a finished, well appointed, tastefully modded driver that you can actually get in and drive without worries, that's what this car is. This is not an original unmolested virgin that is capable of winning the Harmon Fisher Award, or a flared out stanced, swapped street racer.

 

Sure, though this is a non stock car, it's modded rather tastefully in the tradition of the Porsche 911 R-Gruppe folks do and most of us have seen what those reach at auction, like the astronomical price paid for Magnus Walker's cars. What this car is not, is modded beyond all recognizability with cut up flared bodywork, swapped engine from another make, massive home brewed turbo kit, stanced suspension with tires stretched beyond safety limitations. That kids, is why your stanced turbo project won't easily sell.

 

Then there's the fully restored trophy winning car argument... There is none. I like cars that get detailed to the nines, win an award or two, then go on to be driven and enjoyed... Maybe later to be brought back to show level to be shown, even win, again. But to only be trailered to the show, babied around the lawn then be put away again, or even worse, to never be shown in public, only to be squirreled away in some private collection never to be shown to any but the owner's closest closet friends; that's just sad. If you've got the money to restore or buy the best, be like Leno and drive them, show them, let others be enlightened by them, at shows, vintage rallies, cars & coffee events, up and out at the local hangouts and backroads. Or be like Seinfeld and sell them back into the wild where they can be enjoyed by others in line.

 

So to you all who know I had a hand in building this car into what it has become, you might ask, what would I do in addition or change about this one if I had the opportunity? Here's a link to the BaT update page a couple of years ago after we at Casey Motorsports had finished taking it to the next level, the level it sold at. http://bringatrailer.com/2011/10/18/bat-success-story-pt-2-exceptional-2002tii/

 

First off, I'd wax-oil or otherwise treat the front frame rails and elsewhere in the deep innards to stop whatever may be going on in there from this being a rust repaired east coast car. There was rust, there may still be rust, lurking in the bowels of this car. It was not stripped all the way down, dipped and E-coat dipped and finished like a fully restored car might be, so there is in all likeliness some more rust just waiting to be reawakened by time.

 

Next, would I have the upholstery done to a higher standard? Maybe so, maybe not. The direction of the corduroy is correct, just look at all the other restored seats in other period european '02s and Porsches. Sure, you might slide around a bit more with it vertical, but it'll wear much much faster if horizontal. I might've had the centers of the rear seats done in corduroy to better match the front.

 

I would've left the battery in the engine bay. Cutting out the welded in tray or any other good metal on any car is not something I particularly like to do. The tray in this one may have been too rusty to save, if so or if this were an '02 with the bolt in battery tray, then I'd be happy to relocate the battery, or batteries, in my way, to under the back seat. I like doing road trips in my '02s and don't like having a battery or rear strut brace in the way of filling the trunk to the brim for an extended road trip.

 

If I were tasked to have taken this car to the next level of restoration it would've been done to that level from the start... I would've either started with a less rusty car, or stripped, dipped, sealed, undercoated and lightly oversprayed the underside of the shell better than was done here. I would've spent more on replacing or re-plating replacement suspension hardware rather than simply re-plating the rusty pitted existing stuff.

 

That all said, I'll say it again, this is a very nicely restored and tastefully modded driver, not a show queen. The money thrown around to buy it was mostly a pissing match between two wealthy individuals to whom might've spent more than that to have restored it in the first place.

[PaulTWinterton]

Well said Tom.  While I understand and believe that 71K is not the new benchmark for a restored late model tii, it made me raise my Hagerty agreed value policy to 50K.    Do you think that's high enough for a well-preserved (not restored) early model tii?

[COOP]

Hi Tom,

 

You make some really good points, as always (although I did get a chuckle out of your "be like Jay Leno" comment, given that he's worth $350 million and is not constrained by the same concerns that most of us are as we ponder whether or not to take our restored classic for a weekend trip with a 68% rain probability in the forecast!).

 

One important tenet of capitalist economics 101 that you're respectfully missing in your "the-true-market-vs-two-rich-guys-at-an-auction" theory, however, is that ALL precedent sales come to DEFINE the market over time, regardless of their origin or the particulars of an isolated "anomaly" transaction.

 

To put it bluntly, the large-scale market over time couldn't care less about which sale was the result of two bourbon-soaked egomaniacs jousting with meat-swords at a live auction, which one had an amplifying charity component, which one took place via an online auction such as eBay or BaT, which car was transacted at a high-end classic car dealership or which one entailed a private sale between enthusiasts.  Precedent sales = "The Market." Period. It's true in real estate and it's true with old cars.

 

Now, this doesn't mean that $125K (Clarion car) or $71K (this Malaga beauty) is by any means the "new norm" of comps. However, it absolutely does mean that these lofty sales numbers will play a strong hand in shaping and lifting the market values for ALL 2002s moving forward (I hate the over-used, "rising tides lift all ships" cliché but it's perfect here) and it doesn't really matter how anyone of us feels about it, whether we lament the gentrification of our beloved and once-accessible hobbyist icon or rejoice in the rising value of our investments (I feel both of those sentiments, even though they're wholly contradictory) the market forges ahead regardless of people's feelings.

 

COOP

Edited August 2, 2016 by COOP

[COOP]

Sure is a nice car, that Grover Sahara, and a strong sale.

 

So...Two more "wealthy people battling it out?"

 

;-)

 

COOP

Edited August 4, 2016 by COOP

[tjones02]

1 hour ago, COOP said:

Sure is a nice car, that Grover Sahara, and a strong sale.   So...Two more "wealthy people battling it out in a very public display of I want this car more than you?!"   Ummm...Yeah. No.   COOP

Go to this post

Coop, are you openly mocking me with quoting me over and over again? Because from over here it sure seem like it. In fact it's rather insulting, edits notwithstanding. I respect you, your opinion and knowledge more than that.

 

Anyway... Why yes Tom's car was a strong sale; it's a strong car! 

[COOP]

 

Hi Tom...Sorry about that. I was trying to be playful but not insulting. When I went back, it looked like a little much so I toned it down, hence the edits. All good and right back atcha with the respect.

 

COOP