Conserv

I certainly agree with @EricA that I would return it to Chamonix. As to its history, is it currently a BMW color? It looks too light to be Baikal metallic, but appears fairly close — perhaps slightly dark — to be Fjord metallic. Admittedly, post-factory interpretations of colors are frequently better described as a “range” rather than as a precise color. A view of the car as a whole, not simply close-ups, might provide a better image on which to judge the color. While Baikal existed in 1970 and 1971, Fjord only made its first appearance in January 1972. It’s conceivable I’m missing a color brochure between June 1971 — no Fjord — and January 1972 — Fjord appears. Color brochures for June 1971 (first 4 photos) and January 1972 (last 4 photos) are attached below.

What is the quality of the re-paint? Was it a “glass-out” re-paint (blue paint is under the windshield and rear backlight gaskets)? Was all the trim removed (blue paint is under the trim)? What color is the inside of the trunk (it was Chamonix originally)? What color is the engine compartment (it was Chamonix originally)? What color are the wheel wells (they were Chamonix originally)?

I see Chamonix exposed on the cover for the front heater plenum and I see blue paint on the hood hold-down bar (inadequate prep and inadequate masking). If the paint is just a quickie job — not under the car’s details, etc., I’d find it hard to believe a BMW dealer re-painted it for initial delivery. Post-delivery? Well, anything can happen!

I realize you have eyewitness testimony in the form of the cousin, testifying the car was blue from initial delivery, but, hey, it was 50 years ago…

And why was the original title dated 12/31/1975?

Regards,

Steve

On 5/4/2022 at 11:37 AM, RLCLARK said:

I am in the middle of reworking my light buckets - initial intention was to just replace the bulbs.....and then it went crazy from there!  Would be interested in any knowledge you have about that process.

Agreed: very nicely done. Yes, heat-seaming was a much cheaper and faster alternative to stitching, and was used extensively on the molded vinyl seat panels as well.

But this is the first time I’ve seen the console heat-seaming reproduced. Great contribution!

Regards,

Steve

Congrats!

And are those rims, per chance, Stilauto rims? One of the most desirable '02 rims, so they say! ? Can't quite tell from the angled photos.

Let's get this baby into the Registry!

Best regards,

Steve

Lucky: it was originally a Colorado (orange) example! Great and well-loved color. Agreed: the rust is not too bad!

?

Regards,

Steve

Great story and history!

Regards,

Steve

What’s the factory color? Chamonix? Manila? Nevada? Sahara?

Regards,

Steve

On 1/6/2021 at 9:28 PM, Shawn Piper said:

That's absolutely right. The interior-facing hinge is partially fabric covered but the external hinge is exposed.  My seats also didn't have provisions for the chrome eyelets around the headrest posts.  The seat rails are also different.  

 

Here are my tags, which I kept

 

Fabulous, Shawn!

Besides looking great, you've got nice documentation:

One of the Rentrop cards -- the two Rentrop cards have reinforced holes for attachment to the frame, one displays "P.A.R.A." (P.A. Rentrop AG) -- has a June 6, 1969 manufacturing date ("6. 6. 69").

Another tag -- perhaps F.S. Fehrer -- shows a June 1969 date as well ("Juni  69").

Bravo on the seats!

Best regards,

Steve

Wow, Shawn!
 

Best regards,

Steve

Backrests were “wide” from March 1966 (the first 1600-2) until 1970-ish. Model 1600’s, generally without fully reclining seats, had wide backs with vinyl covering most of the hinges. Model 2002’s, which generally had reclining seats standard, had similar wide backs, but the outside (door side) recliner, chromed, was fully visible while vinyl covered much of the inner hinge.

I had a very early 1970 in 1973-74 (VIN 1668093, manufactured September 8, 1969) and I believe it had narrow-backrest seats, with fully-exposed recliners on the outside and inside. I think... If I’m correct, the wide-backrest seats ended at the end of the 1969 model year.

Mike S., Michael, and I, and others, discuss this issue in the following thread:

I would like something better than my old memory to document the change from wide to narrow backrest. BMW seats, unless they’ve been substantially rebuilt, have dated manufacturing tags attached, generally in the backrest. Check your date tags. Attached below is photo of such a tag on a seat manufactured June 20, 1972 (“20. 6. 72”).

Regards,

Steve

On 9/17/2019 at 3:48 PM, adawil2002 said:

 

.....Drove him 21K miles last year.

 

This is an amazing number, Andrew!  I’m so impressed.

Best regards,

Steve

Gorgeous, Andrew! Love it. It’s in great hands now!

Best regards,

Steve

This is so great, Lisa!

And what a terrific story about the prep for it.

Congratulations to you and Derby!

Best regards,

Steve

It really looks great, Andrew!

Does it remain a two-piece dash? And did Just Dashes do all the new knob lettering (and shift pattern)?

Best regards,

Steve

I’m so sorry I missed this post, Lisa!

Congratulations: much deserved!

Best regards,

Steve

Jim,

At the outset, they perhaps thought that borrowing cars for nine months would be easier than it turned out to be. Nine months is a long time, however, when you’re missing your baby! ? Thus, a few of the original cars are rotating out and there’s a small number of new cars replacing them. There will be a second edition of the exhibition book — coming out around November — which incorporates all the entrants.

Best regards,

Steve

Looks very complete and un-molested, with low rust for a Michigan car.  Great find!

VIN 2761179 should be a late February or March 1972 car.  Have you requested the manufacturing date from BMW Archives?  If not, email your VIN to info.grouparchiv@bmwgroup.com.  No charge.

Regards,

Steve

Lisa,

There are precious few differences between a January 1967 U.S. 1600-2 and a January 1967 Euro 1600-2.  The differences were so minor at that time that there were not separate U.S. and Euro VIN sequences.  The U.S. versions got U.S.-spec, English-language instruments, sealed beam headlights, front seat belts, and, I believe, U.S.-style license plate illumination.  Not much else.  At some point, Hoffman Motors made the larger optional bumper overriders a "mandatory option".

But if I had a 1967 Euro-spec 1600-2, I'd probably try to keep it as "Euro-spec" as possible.  Yes, I'd probably substitute in a U.S.-spec (mph) speedometer, and store the Euro (kph) speedometer.

If you haven't already looked at, I'd recommend you thoroughly digest Anders's absolutely essential '66 Bible on the U.K. forum:

http://02forum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=8603

Most importantly, take your time with this car.  Most of this car has survived for 50 years.  Now the weight rests on your shoulders!

Best regards,

Steve

----------------------------------

Thanks so much Steve!

I absolutely plan on keeping this car as euro-spec as possible... I've checked out Anders 1600 bible which is a wonderful reference! My car is actually Amy's twinsie! Lots of similar original components ! 

And I agree that the painter got a bit spray happy with the paint.. but I wasn't there to direct him... ;-)

I do plan on taking my time with this time piece... Doing little things here and there at the moment...  in the meantime.... I love just cruising around in it! 

Always a pleasure to hear from you!

Wow, Lisa!  It looks fabulous!  Perfect color for an early '02.

The re-painter may have been a bit over-zealous, however, painting over the chassis VIN and installing an underhood sticker applicable to a 1600, 2002, or 2002ti -- I believe the ti was introduced in 1969, after the 1600ti had come and gone.

Congratulations!

Steve

-------------------------------------------

I was actually hoping to hear from you... would love your additional feedback to help me get this car to PC! Since the car is from Germany, I'm going to have to do some homework with what was PC for Euro may not be PC for US... Such as the tail lights for example... But we can get into that later... 

The car had a "light" respray as it really did not need to go down to chassis (some minimal rust work was done)... the previous owners have preserved the car pretty well... and its exchanged hands in their family.. so I know the car was well taken care for. 

Be in touch!

Lisa

On September 24, 2016 at 8:15 AM, localhuman said:

Good idea on sending a letter, I haven't done that in quite a while!  Will also see if I can find a date on the block.

 

My luck with originality may have ended with the steel rims though, as the 4 currently on the vehicle are Audi/VW items.  It does appear that the spare I have is original, but I didn't look for a date on it.  Looking at the picture of the car in the snowy field at the beginning of this thread, it looks like the original rims were there.  I'm guessing the previous owner took them off and put the current ones on to make it a roller.  I will have to contact him to see if they're still around somewhere and more importantly if he can give them to me for free!  

 

At the beginning of this thread I was still unsure as to what I should do with this vehicle — whether to part it out,  put a 2.0 engine or even something newer, or something else.  I was even considering going Caribe!

 

But over the past few weeks and with the discussion here I've slowly begun to appreciate the car as it was made.  Having matching number components makes that decision easier, but also having such a wealth of information here makes an original rebuild more possible.  

 

With this approach in mind I'll have a much easier time making decisions surrounding the vehicle.  Do I upgrade brakes or add a sway bar or a newer bigger engine, more modern seats, add a tach, change the color? Nope.  

 

My intent is to keep everything as original as possible, and if not original, I won't do anything that I can't easily undo.  I'm still ultimately unsure of what will happen with the vehicle, but I'll do my best to at the very least stabilize and document it in its current condition so that perhaps one day this vehicle will bring joy to its owner in the same or similar way it did 48 years ago.

 

 

 

Well-considered and well-said!

You're going to have to look far and wide to find another Turf-with-gray-interior 1600-2 that retains its original engine.  I'd venture a guess that you won't find one.  Period!

Best,

Steve

You're batting a thousand!  Block, head, and valve cover all appear to be original, based on engine number and casting dates.  There might also be a casting date on the block -- not that you need further evidence of originality in that area:

I'm thus betting that your car's steel rims -- which are dated by month and year -- are largely original as well.  Don't worry if all five rims are not perfectly matched: high volume cars -- as contrasted to Ferrari's, for example -- frequently came with five rims having 2 or 3 different dates.  They just pulled them out of a large inventory of new rims.

And as to contacting past owners, people vary widely in their response to strangers calling them out of the blue.  If you can find a current phone number, you should be able to find a current address.  I would drop the person a brief letter first, before calling them.

Good luck!

Regards,

Steve

I don't believe much time has been spent analyzing cast-in numbers on any of the cast components of the '02.  And the same can be said of the cast-in numbers on old Ford trucks.  The rationale is that, other than dates, obvious foundry identifications (e.g., a C superimposed over an F for Cleveland Foundry on Ford products), and occasional part numbers, these casting marks are often (generally?) unrelated to anything meaningful today.

I'd bet, however, that if someone put in lots of time collecting and analyzing these markings -- looking at LOTS of samples -- patterns would emerge that would perhaps allow us to better date these components, analyze sources (e.g., BMW factory vs. subs), and understand just how many changes were made to a given component over the years.

I'm leaving this project for someone much younger than I.

With that said, is there not a casting date on the underside of your car's valve cover?  Is it a ribbed cover (pre-'68-ish valve covers were generally smooth, without the longitudinal "heat-dissipating" ribs on the exterior)?

Regards,

Steve

The forums are having difficulties, so I thought I'd look at the blogs and my eyes came to rest on your car's current steering wheel.  Some thoughts:

The leather wrapping of the steering wheel is not original, although it seems like 50% of old '02's received such a wrapping somewhere in their histories -- the wraps were inexpensive and available everywhere. The '68's received the then-new 3-spoke steering wheel, which replaced the 2-spoke steering wheel of the '66 and '67 cars. Old 3-spoke wheels ('68 through '73) are generally in poor, cracked condition -- sometimes this was the rationale behind adding the leather wrapping. Replace the steering wheel if you must, but...note that the smooth round center horn button was a '68-only design. It will fit a later 3-spoke wheel if you wind up with a later replacement.

Un-cracked 3-spoke wheels are still out there, but they are not common. Also -- and this is minor -- there are at least two different diameters for the 3-spoke steering wheels (423 mm. and 400 mm.).  The slightly-larger diameter was the earlier style, as yours would have had. The difference is relatively minor, but anyone shopping for a 3-spoke should be aware of the two different diameters. Using a "wrong-diameter" steering wheel on a '68 car will be less noticeable than using the later style center horn button on a '68!

There are, by the way, steering wheel specialist shops that restore plastic-rim steering wheels. I have used one for my '61 F-350 (below). I have not yet heard of any '02 owners pursuing this course, probably because these steering wheel restorations are $300-$500 at a time when you can still find an un-cracked replacement wheel for, say, $150. It will take some looking, however!

My two cents.

Steve

Very complete car!  Finding near-50-year-old 1600-2's with their original engines is quite rare. When engines got tired -- and the cars were in their "just-an-old-car" phase -- it was far too easy, and cheap, to swap in a 2-liter engine, and discard the original 1.6 liter!

A 118 head is correct for a 1600-2.  The casting date for the head is generally in the vicinity -- it varies somewhat -- of the cast-in "118".

Below is the April 1976 casting date on my '76's original E21 head. The date is between the number 3 and 4 intake ports, but could be anywhere on that intake side of the head in other instances: some are between the number 2 and 3 intake ports.

The car's gray interior is really worth saving. And it looks so great with the Turf exterior, not to mention rare in the U.S.! Replacement vinyl will, I recognize, be a challenge to find. Consider it worth the time you will invest tracking it down (or at least a close substitute).

All good. Take your time and save the car!

Regards,

Steve

Turf was an NK sedan color that carried over into the early years of the '02 (by which I mean 1600-2's and 2002's).  It seemed much more common to me in the early '70's in the Northeast than it is today.  I almost bought a Turf '67 back in '73 or '74, but the car was simply too rusted....already -- I lived in Pennsylvania at that time and 5 - 10 years was the life expectancy of an '02.  I believe that the December 1968 all-models color and upholstery brochure is the first brochure to omit Turf, so Turf is probably in its final months around that time.

Most U.S. Turf cars I have seen had either the rare -- for the U.S. -- gray vinyl interior or the "U.P.S. brown" vinyl interior which disappeared altogether after 1968.

What's your car's VIN?  And have you, while you wait for a response from BMW Archives, used the VIN decoder provided by the BMW 2002 Club of Columbia:

http://www.bmwclasicos.com/vin.php

It's always accurate.  But it provides a range of manufacturing dates rather than a specific date.

Also, if you're restoring an early car, particularly 1966 through 1968 model years, you should be aware of the truly excellent '66 Bible, assembled (accurately and lovingly) by Anders:

http://02forum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=8603

In the second post of the '66 Bible, which lists all known '66 1600-2's, I note that VIN 1504069 was a factory Turf car, although the Turf presently survives solely on the car's upper surfaces (photo shown).  Turf is at its best with the gray vinyl interior, as it provides a good contrast against the Turf exterior -- something that gets lost with "U.P.S. brown" interior.

And, yes, I probably recall that wintry photograph of your car from the April Craig's List posting.

Regards,

Steve