Help / advise needed regarding door / rockerpanel fitment

[D.martijn]

Some of you might be up to date with the Touring project..

 

After repairing the rear subframe mounts, inner rocker and rear shocktower panel / wheel wells we got started with fitting the rocker on to the car.

To have an overall idea how everything will fit together we decided to fit the MVP replacement door, NOS fender and NOS nose panel

 

However we noticed the following, the MVP door has a crown to it compared to the rocker panel, having the door flush at the B pillar, the front corner of the door sits a lot more inwards. This is with the stainless steel trim presented on the car.

 

 

However the biggest issue we are having is that when we try to open the door it's hitting the rocker panel at the front of the car.

Door shut:

 

Not even half way open

 

Both new and old rocker panels are straight when we compare it with a steel profile

 

When we put the door on the bench and let the lip of the door rest on the edge of the steel tube, press the side of the door where it meets the B pillar against the steel tube, we have a gap of +/- 12mm

 

We also have some gap with our NOS fenders but I think we might be able to massage it a little

 

Has anyone fitted MVP door before? Could someone use a steel tube and compare it with an original door (unfortunatly I threw mine out with the move to the new workshop).. Any advise would be appreciated! thanks

Edited April 29, 2023 by D.martijn

[02Les]

The best I coud do with a straight edge pressed up against the b-pillar end was ~7/8mm. Not easy single-handed.

 

You may need a washer or two between the door and the hinge to push it out at the a-pillar end.

[D.martijn]

3 hours ago, 02Les said:

The best I coud do with a straight edge pressed up against the b-pillar end was ~7/8mm. Not easy single-handed.

 

You may need a washer or two between the door and the hinge to push it out at the a-pillar end.

 

So there is somewhat of a curve in an original door.

Putting washers/spacer between the door and hinge causes it to sit more inwards instead of pushing it out at the a pillar if I'm not mistaken.

[02Les]

3 minutes ago, D.martijn said:

 

So there is somewhat of a curve in an original door.

Putting washers/spacer between the door and hinge causes it to sit more inwards instead of pushing it out at the a pillar if I'm not mistaken.

 

 

It's a while since I did it; hope my memory is correct.

Place the washers between the hinge (outside face) and the captive nuts. Can be tricky getting them (3 per hinge?) in there. Wonder if you could make up a 2 or 3 mm shim to get all 3 fixings in one go?

[tzei]

I made single piece shim - easier to assemble. 2 mm is about all you can slide in there (oe door).

[tzei]

13 minutes ago, D.martijn said:

So there is somewhat of a curve in an original door.

Yes, middle part is a tad under 10 mm higher than edges iirc.

[uai]

I remember somebody wrote on the German forum that opposed to oe doors the door hide on the mvp doors are not welded to the subframe and therefore would need a tack weld after aligning to keep their shape. I‘ll try to dig the thread up and put a link here. 
The oe doors of newer production needed to have a tab on the vent window cut and re-welded to be aligned at the bottom of the b pillar. And most of all you cannot align doors without rubber. On my ex convertible the doors were fitting very good just until you installed the rubber.

[D.martijn]

12 hours ago, tzei said:

I made single piece shim - easier to assemble. 2 mm is about all you can slide in there (oe door).

 

12 hours ago, 02Les said:

 

 

It's a while since I did it; hope my memory is correct.

Place the washers between the hinge (outside face) and the captive nuts. Can be tricky getting them (3 per hinge?) in there. Wonder if you could make up a 2 or 3 mm shim to get all 3 fixings in one go?

 

 

The bolts screw into the hinge itself though so putting a spacer outside of the hinge doesn't do anything

It's only possible to put a shim between the hinge and door structure to it get sandwiched which causes the door to go inwards.. 😕 

 

Not sure what other way there is to space out the door more away from the A pillar

[tzei]

Bend the hinged part or machine material off of it.

[02Les]

I'm sorry. Guess I was thinking of a diferent car. Getting way too old.

[TobyB]

Start pounding.

 

Aftermarket doors are always a starting place- even back when BMW was 

pressing the doors themselves, they needed a significant amount of fitting.

 

This looks like it's going to take more than 'significant'.

 

Personally, I'd fit the rocker, to the best fit possible, then tack it securely, with the

idea that I'm NOT going to move it unless I REALLY REALLY have to.  And I'd use

the old door for an alignment guide for that, if you still have it.

 

Then start modifying the door.  Take a look from the other side- does the inner surface of the return (frame)

also curve?  If it does, that's where it needs to be straightened, to form parallel surfaces to the body.

The door should seal to the body aperture.

The easy way to move a door outwards is to cut and reweld the hinges- but that fits the car to the door, not vice-versa.

So then that leaves cutting the door mount in the door, and moving IT outwards.

But before that, again, assess the overall thickness of the door.  If it's moved outwards, will the center

part of the frame be too far away from the sill?

If so, the fix is to cut the bottom and front of the door, and add material in front to get the outer edge to move

out.  It may then turn out that the middle's too far out, at which point rebuilding the lower front corner of the door's

pretty much the only way to get it right.

If it's this far off, removing the door skin may be necessary, and after the frame's where it needs to be,

the skin will probably need some pretty significant 'adjustment'.

 

Yep, it's quite possible to spend more time on an aftermarket door than BMW did building the entire car.

And it's not unusual, at this point, for the 'restoration team' to reassess the old door, scratch their heads, and decide

that a day spent replacing the bottom 1/3 of the skin and outer frame lip's a FAR more attractive option.

 

Don't forget to fit the windows and latch once the sheet metal fits, and make sure they all align and work correctly.

Test fitting the weatherstripping's also critical at this juncture...

 

Good luck!

 

t

 

[BarneyT]

   the new doors from vmp are not perfect but to me still way better than trying to fight the rust…my only help is I start with alignment of the horizontal panel  crease / horizontal line in the door to same on body and then the front and rear gaps and then try to shape/form the door to car… if the back lower corner of the door is too far end and the front alignment looks fine then you have to grab that lower corner and try to bend it out to match car…

[D.martijn]

22 hours ago, tzei said:

Bend the hinged part or machine material off of it.

 

I've also been thinking about it, I read a comment on a German 02 forum as well although the translation using Google Translate isn't the best. From what I can tell his person also bend the hinge part.
It's also common to adjust (tap/hammer) the part that's on the A pillar as well. Although that's more front to back, no out - inwards adjustment.

 

16 hours ago, TobyB said:

Start pounding.

 

Aftermarket doors are always a starting place- even back when BMW was 

pressing the doors themselves, they needed a significant amount of fitting.

 

This looks like it's going to take more than 'significant'.

 

Personally, I'd fit the rocker, to the best fit possible, then tack it securely, with the

idea that I'm NOT going to move it unless I REALLY REALLY have to.  And I'd use

the old door for an alignment guide for that, if you still have it.

 

Then start modifying the door.  Take a look from the other side- does the inner surface of the return (frame)

also curve?  If it does, that's where it needs to be straightened, to form parallel surfaces to the body.

The door should seal to the body aperture.

The easy way to move a door outwards is to cut and reweld the hinges- but that fits the car to the door, not vice-versa.

So then that leaves cutting the door mount in the door, and moving IT outwards.

But before that, again, assess the overall thickness of the door.  If it's moved outwards, will the center

part of the frame be too far away from the sill?

If so, the fix is to cut the bottom and front of the door, and add material in front to get the outer edge to move

out.  It may then turn out that the middle's too far out, at which point rebuilding the lower front corner of the door's

pretty much the only way to get it right.

If it's this far off, removing the door skin may be necessary, and after the frame's where it needs to be,

the skin will probably need some pretty significant 'adjustment'.

 

Yep, it's quite possible to spend more time on an aftermarket door than BMW did building the entire car.

And it's not unusual, at this point, for the 'restoration team' to reassess the old door, scratch their heads, and decide

that a day spent replacing the bottom 1/3 of the skin and outer frame lip's a FAR more attractive option.

 

Don't forget to fit the windows and latch once the sheet metal fits, and make sure they all align and work correctly.

Test fitting the weatherstripping's also critical at this juncture...

 

Good luck!

 

t

 

 

The rocker it currently clamped in place with the help of some cleco's at the top flange and just clamps on the bottom.
The height is now determined with the A pillar flange and the rear quarter panel (I measured the original panel's height before removing it, so it should be in the same position or very close.

 

The inner structure of the door itself (where the doorcard sits against is completely flat.

The middle section of the door fit's pretty good with the rocker and stainless steel trim, it's just the one corner at the front that seems to be pointing inwards..

 

Unfortunately I no longer have the old original doors since moving to a bigger/our own workspace.
I actually already had started repairing the old door (new corners and middle section on the bottom but the skins I got then were way off, MVP didn't offer skins yet.)

 

9 hours ago, BarneyT said:

   the new doors from vmp are not perfect but to me still way better than trying to fight the rust…my only help is I start with alignment of the horizontal panel  crease / horizontal line in the door to same on body and then the front and rear gaps and then try to shape/form the door to car… if the back lower corner of the door is too far end and the front alignment looks fine then you have to grab that lower corner and try to bend it out to match car…

 

The horizontal line does align with the B pillar, the front wing it currently not attached in it's final position. but does seem to also align pretty good. it's just that one corner that seems to be way in

[D.martijn]

Could someone post a couple of pictures with a door open? Just to have some kind of idea how much gap there is between the front edge/corner of the door and the A pillar / sill?

[Toga]

Hi there,
this won't probably be of a great help, but during the restoration of my 2002Tii sedan, I remember having read somewhere that to correct the twisted replacement door, "they" cut a reinforcement inside the door to correct the twist, then welded back with the door with the twist corrected. I bought one door from Walloth Nesch and fortunately it fitted perfectly. I wish you good luck with yours. But after reading about all you've done on you car, I have no doubt you'll solve this. It is just another episode which will make an additional chapter in the book you should write...