No Start After Rain... but maybe unrelated (video)

[Birdie]

I bought this '76 2002 about 2 weeks ago. It hadn't been driven much, if at all, since 2005. So I had it towed directly to a great mechanic (who I will also reach out too) to get it baseline operational. I know it will need more work.

He did a tune up, new distributor, points, hoses, cleaned out the carb, etc. etc. He gave it a preliminary clean bill of health. It was really running great... for a week. Then it rained really hard for two days so I wasn't able to start it. Now it won't start. 

Listen to video and let me know where you would start based on what you hear.

It just doesn't sound like there is spark however:

 

- the battery is strong

- the starter is strong

- it turns over strong

- I sprayed start fluid in the carb and it had no effect on the behavior/sound

- I used an inline spark plug tester and there was a spark (can't say how strong)

 

I'm new to this but I find troubleshooting pretty fun so any step-wise test plans are welcomed. 

 

Here is a video:

 

 

Thanks!

[2002iii]

I would start by pulling the distributor cap and looking for condensation.

 

You say new distributor, who is it made by?

 

Where spark plugs and wires replaced?

[Birdie]

Sorry, should have listed 

- removed distributor cap and checked for condensation. Found none.

- spark plugs / wires were replaced 

 

Will get distributor manufacturer in a bit.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Birdie

[John76]

If you are getting spark, did you also check for gas?

Sounds like nothing is burning...not even a sputter.

New distributor?  What type and how was it installed? Did it get wet (water or oil)?

Was the car parked outside during the recent heavy rain in the Bay Area?

Sorry for the questions, but your car sounds healthy when cranking, so if the spark is sparking at the right time, and the gas is getting to the carb, and you have good compression (vacuum and air) ...then something should "pop".

Also check the idle jet and idle cutoff solenoid (if fitted). Needs +12V with ignition "on".

Edited March 31, 2023 by John76
Addition

[Birdie]

Questions are great.

Indeed, it sounds like it wants to start - desperately.
Yes, the car was parked outside during the rain storm. Distributor cap is dry( will get make in a bit).

 

When you say “how was it installed?” what exactly do you mean?

 

Also, how definitive is an inline spark plug tester. It lights up but not much. Is “not enough spark” a “thing”?

 

One more thing - I have every single paperwork for every service since ‘76 and they mention several times (more recently) something about cold start needs addressing. the mechanic also mentioned cold start being tougher.  It’s a lot colder today than all other days.

 

I thought ‘no gas’ but would starter fluid show signs of life?

 

The carbs were cleaned up but not rebuilt. Wonder if they are inoperable after being driven their first 50 miles in 18 years (I had fun while it lasted).

 

thanks

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Birdie

[John76]

17 minutes ago, Birdie said:

When you say “how was it installed?” what exactly do you mean?

Sorry for being vague.

Is the distributor a stock Bosch part and if so, does it still have the points/condenser?

Is your '76 a California spec car with a vacuum advance and retard (two vacuum hoses)? I don't see an air pump or EGR plumbing. 

Looks like a Weber carb installed. Does it have an idle cut-off? (Some do).

Also, a car that has been sitting for 18 years probably has a few carb issues: bad (heavy) float, pump diaphragm, clogged fuel filter(s), dirty/rusty fuel tank, rotted gas lines, bad fuel pump, etc. Doesn't take long for these things to give up the ghost when asked to function after a long sit. 

35 minutes ago, Birdie said:

the mechanic also mentioned cold start being tougher.

This may be a distributor issue, hence my questions about the make/model and mods. Cold starts need a rich mixture and a retarded spark. Static timing should be about 3 deg. BTDC. A good accelerator pump diaphragm will give a good squirt into the intake manifold and if the choke is set correctly, and the idle jet is clear, and the "sunk" float is not flooding...you should be good.

John

PS: I have a '76 (original owner) that sat for 19 years.  🙂

[Birdie]

Thanks for so much helpful info john76. I've certainly got some marching orders now. However, I must admit that I have never worked on a carburetor before so this won't happen quickly. I'll be back with some answers and many more questions. Thanks again.

 

ps. I am out in the East Bay. Car came from Novato, although it appears to have spent most of it's life in Point Richmond. 

[resra]

Sounds like a dead fuel pump to me. Crack the line open after the fuel pump where it attaches to the carburetor. Put something there to catch the spitting fuel and ask someone else to crank while you watch how much gas is being pumped by that fuel pump and go from there.

Edited March 31, 2023 by resra

[Birdie]

Excellent test advice. Thanks resra. Will report back.

['76mintgrün'02]

2 hours ago, Birdie said:

Is “not enough spark” a “thing”?

 

Yes, it can be.  It's a little hard to see details in the video, but it looks like you have a ceramic resistor installed underneath that blue coil.  Blue coils have internal resistors, so you don't need (want) the external one added to the equation.  You don't usually see that style resistor on '76 models, because they used a special resistor wire instead.  It has a clear jacket that looks like a single strand speaker wire.  If you've got both resistors on a blue coil, you will definitely have a weak spark.  It may be that someone bypassed the original resistor wire and installed the ceramic resistor.  In any case, you don't want external resistors with that coil.

 

The Birdie's eye view video was fun.  Posting some close up photos of the distributor and coil wiring might be helpful.

 

I agree that you should get at least a sputter from the starting fluid, if it is a fuel delivery problem.

[Mike Self]

Check things logically, one at a time.  To start, you need fuel, air and spark, all delivered at the proper time.  Since it ran properly before the rain, you should be able to rule out sudden low compression onset, the timing suddenly going out of spec, and no air getting to the carburetor.  That leaves spark and fuel.

 

To check spark--pull a plug wire, hook it to a spare spark plug and lay the plug atop the valve cover.  Crank the engine and look for a nice blue spark.  No spark, no start.  If no spark, work your way back to the distributor, and then the coil, first for high tension electrics (the spark) then for +12v at the coil.  

 

If you have spark...check the fuel pump for operation.  Pull the outlet side hose off the pump, have someone crank the engine while you hold a catch can under the outlet nipple on the pump.  If no squirt, then work your way back to the tank to find the problem.  A clogged line upstream from the pump is kinda unlikely as the car ran before it rained.  If the pump is OK, then pop the air cleaner's top off and (1) make sure the choke plates are closed and (2) when you work the accelerator linkage, you get a squirt of gas from the accelerator pump nozzle  (you'll have to hold the choke plates open with your finger to see that.  

 

Do those tests, and then tell us whatcha find...

 

mike

[Dudeland]

Check the voltage at the coil with the key on (the run position).  It should be about 9-ish volts.  It goes to 12 when cranking.  If it is a 76, then you may have two resistors,  one with the ceramic(not correct), then the yellow inline wire resistor, which would really impact your spark. 

 

Regards

 

Edit

Ya, I think that is your problem.  I can't see from the video if the resistor is actually being used. Take it out of the circuit and see if it works better. 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Dudeland
Video look

[Birdie]

Thanks for all the great advice everyone. I’m looking forward to the weekend. Will report back.

[Dug Nichols]

One other thought... when I put in a replacement engine (a long time ago) I pulled the old one myself, but had a local shop do the install. When I got the car back it ran fine for a week or so, but then started misfiring oddly and then to the point that it wouldn't run. Through a lot of troubleshooting I ultimately determined that the distributor itself was the issue. I replaced it with a spare and it fired right up (and 20 years later still running well). So it's worth considering the distributor in the mix. Good luck! Frustrating problem for sure... 

[Overdraft]

Interesting thread…subscribed…