Ok, Here's an Idea, Rack & Pinon Conversion Kit?

[TobyB]

Quote

box is starting to wear out and has some slop at the ends

They all do that- if it's smooth and slop- free at the center, that's what you get.

 

As to the rear-  phew, I'm just starting to figure out E36 angles and such, 

and they're far better.  But fitting that system in a 2002 would be either really

ugly or a TON of work- as in, if your rear subframe mounts are completely

rusted away, THEN it might start to make sense.  

One of the reasons the semitrailing arms are so attractive in a RWD is that they're

VERY space- efficient between the wheels.  So the 318ti and Z3 used them into this

century, despite the handling quirks.  

Dual a- arms might work if you were into torsion bars- but BMW was not, so there's 

not really enough room for them under the pan.  And anyway, it's just MacPherson in front...

One of the things that several of us have played with is changing the trailing arm angle.

That improves the camber curves for racing, but it doesn't do much about rear squat and lift,

which is what will bite you in a more loosely- sprung street car.

 

I'm kinda to the point where 'it is what it is'- a vintage car that has enough power and enough handling.

If I want everything to be THAT much better, then I'll buy something from the '90's 

 

But that shouldn't stop YOU- find something that's a mess anyway, and have at it!

 

t

the more you learn, the less you know

[2002iii]

Don't fix it if it isn't broken. For a car designed in the mid 60s it has some of the best steering available at the time and is better than most modern rack and pinion. Rack and pinion steering is cheaper and easier to produce but that doesn't make it better.

[gary32]

Double the torque and horsepower of your 2002 and see how much better she handles and steers.

1 hour ago, 2002iii said:

Don't fix it if it isn't broken. 

 

[MOESPEED2002]

.

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by MOESPEED2002

[MOESPEED2002]

On 11/19/2020 at 3:58 PM, Captain Manly said:

Since we all likely putting on bigger tires and smaller steering wheels, which will result of us looking like "meat heads" over time, has anyone considered the idea of a R&P conversion kit?  

Something as follows:

Bolt on from the front subframe

Modified idler arms - if need be

Aftermarket R&P from like a Porsche 

CV knuckle kit to the R&P

 

Someone like IE, or Blunt or Top End that has a skunk works out back?

 

Just an idea.

 

+1 gary32.

 

This maybe the conversion kit Nick speaks of. Isn't the builder a member of the FAQ?

 

If anybody can shed light on why 02 race cars of the era oped to ditch the oem steering and convert to R&P that may help. Not looking for a flame war but really just trying to answer the original post.

 

Cheers

 

Moe

Edited November 26, 2020 by MOESPEED2002

[gary32]

If anybody can shed light on why 02 race cars of the era oped to ditch the oem steering and convert to R&P that may help. Not looking for a flame war but really just trying to answer the original post.

 

I can take a stab at this.

Track use rewards precise steering input. Steering is 1 component of direction change it can also slow the car.

At speed and with smaller inputs a rack and pinion system might feel more precise and feel can be everything.

 

For little subject expansion take a look at the latest use of DAS steering.

Edited November 26, 2020 by gary32

[markmac]

What do you think it would be like to drive a car with 11x15 and 13x15 wheels for twelve hours?, or 6 hours? or 4 hours?, or even 60 or so laps?  True for the endurance races there were multiple drivers, but then  you were still taking your 'turn/shift' for a couple of hours. 

 

I would agree with what you suggest above.  A friend just sent me this pic of my Alpina car - this was its third outing out (Avus Rennen) which was like 60 laps.  Aside from Mr. Alpina / Burkard Bovensiepen kneeling next to his car, Professor Fritz Indra sitting in the drivers seat (he was head of development at Alpina at the time), if you look below the spoiler you can see the rubber boots on the steering rack (I have to say its a helluva picture).  Initially they built the car with a QR steering box, but as soon as the R&P was homologated, they changed.  At the time Alpina were the only ones running 15" wheels (so they could get big brakes to fit), but GS was using R&P as well, not sure about Schnitzer -  I figure they probably were.  Kind of a non-answer but is what I think.

[NickVyse]

9 hours ago, MOESPEED2002 said:

+1 gary32.

 

This maybe the conversion kit Nick speaks of. Isn't the builder a member of the FAQ?

 

If anybody can shed light on why 02 race cars of the era oped to ditch the oem steering and convert to R&P that may help. Not looking for a flame war but really just trying to answer the original post.

 

Cheers

 

Moe

 

Yep, that's the one, álex jardón in Spain and yes I believe he's occasionally on here. I'll point him to the thread, does look like a good set-up but I don't have the details. And yes, my r&p was a lot lighter to steer than the original box.

 

Nick

[MOESPEED2002]

Thanks Nick. Alex does have a few videos of his car in action on youtube. Looks like he is active in rally racing.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHdw1VmZfn8tmledUYZzFtw

 

His kit does look proper and I would say is the closest complete kit I've ever seen. It addresses the subframe flex on the front radius rod pivot point. He may also be moving that pick point down to the same plane as the arm on the subframe. Short steering arms and possibly a narrower rack than the E21. He also has his rack more forward than mine. Non the less, it takes some calculated work to sort out far beyond just steering as others have said.

 

But his kit does look like an option for those interested in a possible conversion without going through the trouble as I have. I am getting close to sorting mine out but I like tinkering. It's been frustrating but an educational learning experience for me.

 

Cheers

BTW.... Nice photo Mark.

 

Moe

Edited November 27, 2020 by MOESPEED2002

[TobyB]

Yeah, for a race car, you've already murdered the scrub radius with the sticky- out slicks.

Most of the time you're using the 5 degrees of steering around straight- ahead

anyways, so may as well save some weight, save some room

and get far more adjustability from a rack conversion.

Since you're already building the front from raceyparts anyhoo.

 

When I have the 10x24" tires on, I limit the steering pretty significantly,

as anything over 3/4 turn in either direction will shred the front tires if

I'm dumb enough to try to reverse...

 

but, then, raceycar....

 

t

 

 

 

[inca-orange]

Hello Mark,

 

I think I have an ALPINA rack & pinion unit in my group 2 E21 racecar.

 

If this will help… I can make you some pictures in the next weeks when I change the garage of the racecar.

 

Best regards

Andreas

[irdave]

2 hours ago, inca-orange said:

Hello Mark,

 

I think I have an ALPINA rack & pinion unit in my group 2 E21 racecar.

 

If this will help… I can make you some pictures in the next weeks when I change the garage of the racecar.

 

Best regards

Andreas

 

Hello Andreas.

 

Speaking for the group, yes, please post pictures of your car.

 

Thank you.

Dave.

[TobyB]

Yes, please for pictures.  But the E21 started out with a rack...

 

For the record, now that Jonny isn't posting much, we're always in for pix!

You used to have to be a little careful what you asked for...

 

t

 

[ray_]

17 minutes ago, TobyB said:

Yes, please for pictures.  But the E21 started out with a rack...

 

For the record, now that Jonny isn't posting much, we're always in for pix!

You used to have to be a little careful what you asked for...

 

t

 

Br careful. Conkitchen is still around!

 

[TobyB]

Yeah, 

butt Jonny's posts about welding were...

...over the moon.

 

t