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Ok, Here's an Idea, Rack & Pinon Conversion Kit?


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Since we all likely putting on bigger tires and smaller steering wheels, which will result of us looking like "meat heads" over time, has anyone considered the idea of a R&P conversion kit?  


Something as follows:

Bolt on from the front subframe

Modified idler arms - if need be

Aftermarket R&P from like a Porsche 

CV knuckle kit to the R&P

 

Someone like IE, or Blunt or Top End that has a skunk works out back?

 

Just an idea.

 

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I've got rack and pinion in my 2002.  With power steering it was too light with not nearly as much feel as the stock system.  I'm with Ray on this, I think the stock system has a nice feel.  I'm currently using a dry e30m3 rack (with e30m3 suspension, subframe, etc.), going to a non-m z4 rack without the power assist- supposed to be easier steering and much quicker ratio.

 

My tii had 15x7 at 25, lowered, with 380mm steering wheel- felt pretty good to me.  But I wouldn't really want to go smaller than 380.  New car came with a 350- I found it to be too small.

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I don't think you'll see a kit offered by any vender,in order to make it affordable they would most likely  have to source used parts and like brake parts I don't think any vender would take the liability on used steering parts. Also a r&p system would add a bunch to the turning circle and I like the sharp u turns you can make in a 02.

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Not that I wouldn't mind lighter steering... but I run a 350 Momo Concave with a 195-15 performance tires and feel it is very much manageable, ya softies. :) a 350mm wheel in proportional look and feel to me is just perfect in an 02 interior.

 

I would DEFINITELY appreciate a quicker ratio thou, and a tighter overall feel. My box has been refreshed, runs grease, and my entire front end is poly, and I still think it could be more direct. 

 

 So if all that could be had with a light steering feel with a 350mm wheel... stoked. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by 2002Scoob
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Manual rack and pinion would be pretty cool. I like how the 2002 steering feels but my box is starting to wear out and has some slop at the ends finding good used boxes isn't always going to be an option. A rack and pinion kit would be a safe and reliable upgrade for our cars 

 

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7 hours ago, 2002Scoob said:

Not that I wouldn't mind lighter steering... but I run a 350 Momo Concave with a 195-15 performance tires and feel it is very much manageable, ya softies. :) a 350mm wheel in proportional look and feel to me is just perfect in an 02 interior.

 

I would DEFINITELY appreciate a quicker ratio thou, and a tighter overall feel. My box has been refreshed, runs grease, and my entire front end is poly, and I still think it could be more direct. 

 

 So if all that could be had with a light steering feel with a 350mm wheel... stoked. 

 

 

 

 

I think a bit of negative camber helps....

 

Cheers,

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Not to be a little doubting raincloud of thunder here,

but the 2002 front steering is designed around a floating

center link.  As the 'box turns, its arm forms one end of a parallelogram,

and the pitman arm's distance from the subframe varies.

This also varies the distance of the inner ball joints from the subframe.

This provides a varying rate of turn to both wheels, and also feedback to the 

driver.  

 

A rack's geometry is very different to that, as the rack itself is fixed

relative to the subframe, so the inner ball joints move linearly. 

 

In the '60's, racks were cheaper and easier to make than boxes,

but few had done the suspension geometry to get it to work well, 

whereas boxes had 80 years of development (for good or ill)

 

The 320 used a rack- and is universally hailed as one of the least- exciting

cars to drive in the universe. (not only because of the rack...)

 

So if suspension geometry's your thing, sweet, go fer it.

But it'll be a bit of a project, and you'll end up redesigning

the front lower suspension...  and the best you can hope

for is that the car will handle as well as it did before you started.

 

t

now, redesigning the REAR suspension, THAT could result in some

handling improvements...

 

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5 hours ago, ray_ said:

I think a bit of negative camber helps....

 

Cheers,

I've got a lil' bit of that in the form of fixed camber plates, but nothing too aggressive. 

 

Again, it's nothing to complain about, just enough that if someone wanted to dump time and money down the rabbit hole to make something better that I might consider a  few years down the road... go for it!

 

TIll then, I'm happy with my occasional forearm workout when I do drive the car :)  I parallel parked twice tonight and did a few multi-point turns tonight survived!

Edited by 2002Scoob
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What Toby said + 5.  It's a sh*t load of work = $$$$ (I am still sick about what it ended up costing.....but, its A+ work and it works right).  I suppose there are a few that have the skills and brains to figure out all of hte geometry.....not me for sure.  My Alpina race car has R&P.  It had been crashed a few times and had a frankenstein steering set up.  Nearly everything was made/fabricated - new.  First, they put it up on a jig and used some sort of measuring devices to see what it was doing when turning.  The shop owner told me it was pretty much the worst bump steer he had ever seen and that the car would have been straight up dangerous to drive.  The rack is a BMW 320i motorsport quick ratio rack.  It needed to be shortened up by about 2.5".  Now it turns lock/lock about 21/2 turns.  I know a number of folks have converted their cars to R&P and apparently works fine, to really, really make it work right there is quite a bit of work to do.  In the case of my car R&P was necessary, they were running 11x15 and 13x15 wheels, think about that with steering box.  Here are some pics of the bits in my car.

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MVIMG_20190226_111238.jpg

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4 hours ago, markmac said:

It's a sh*t load of work = $$$$ (I am still sick about what it ended up costing.....but, its A+ work and it works right). 

 

 

At least they made it look sexy as fuck while they were doing it.  (And hopefully they made you some spares while they were doing all that...)

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Search the subject here, discussed a lot. I had an e21 rack thrown on my m2 by a company back in 2001. It was not good (see Mark and Tobys response). I played with it a bit, moving the rack and shortening the steering arms. Better, but still not back to where the car started. I did this because it was a RHD m2 conversion, so very little room for the steering box. In retrospect it would have been better to find a talented exhaust builder and have a complex bunch of bananas run round the box. Now fixed by moving country and steering wheel to the left, all because of a rack and pinion conversion.

 

BTW, with the shorter steering arms it would have had a better turning circle than an 02, if the inner wings didn't get in the way 🙂 With stock steering arms it was the same.

 

There is a guy in Spain selling complete subframes with a rack mounted - he's developed it for his rally 02 and has good things to say about it (but he is selling them, so..). Don't forget you'll need a bearing where the column passes through the bulkhead, and with the standard angles it's difficult not to get a tight spot in the UJ.

 

If you think Ackermann is an actual superhero then walk away 😆

Edited by NickVyse
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Captain,

 

There maybe a "conversion kit" available through an individual who I think is on the FAQ as Nick as mentioned. I thought he was in Australia but I will agree with Nick, some diligence of the search might find one answer to your equation. Toby B and Markmac are spot on!

 

As far as why vendors in the states might not take on such a route. It's the r&d involved to provide a system that will function to buyers expectations and the follow through needed in the marriage that might involve. The price tag may not add up to its sale. A little search on GB's here on hot aftermarket items may shed light on some of the backlash. 

 

I blindly started down the rabbit hole back in 2007 when I did the S14 swap. Nick was the inspiration when I did the swap as he was one of the early versions that sparked my interest. I modified my subframe, and got the system working and it functioned as a steering system, but shortly found out that it's more suspension related than steering. I made changes over the years with some guidance from some of the wiser FAQ members and improved its progress but it still doesn't feel like my 02 pre-swap. Then again.....wide tires, mad suspension upgrades, 5 speed, 4.11 LSD, and an S14 didn't feel like a 02 anyways, but the steering/suspension feel lacked the spirit on an 02.

 

Not to sound discouraging, but at the current time, the swap will be more individually involved if your handy, patient and proficient in the fabrication department. I am still working through mine but feel I'm getting close to a good example. Markmac is a very good example of a system that was thought through, detailed and designed with results that showed it from an educated base. Truly something I am trying to strive for in a "conversion kit" but $$$$ non the less and Im sure will be worth it.

 

I'll be posting updates on the new setup soon but if you have further interest, PM and I'll try to answer any questions you might have.

 

Moe

Edited by MOESPEED2002
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Hey TobyB, I've read a bit on the rear suspension so when you say   "now, redesigning the REAR suspension, THAT could result in some handling improvements..."  it sounds like you've isolated features you would build around. I'm a put maximum effort where you get biggest returns kind of builder but I'm a motorbike guy so there's a lot I don't know about 4 wheels. Can you elaborate a little or point me to posts with discussion already going

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