5 Speed / Add or detract from value of otherwise stock car

[Slavs]

All Borg and Warner synchroes have teeth while the Porsche synchroes are tapered and smooth rings. This difference in design accounts for the different feel. The Borg Warner synchroes are notchy or Klicky while the Porsche synchroes feel like a hot knife through butter. I don't think many of you have driven an early 02 with the original Porsche synchroed gearbox in good working condition.

 

The only 5 speed conversion I think would work well on these cars is the 5 speed close ratio gearbox with Porsche synchroes. You can get an overdrive out of 5th by going to the 3.45 rear diff. And, your 1st and 2nd gear wouldn't be crunched up and too close together like they are with the 245 when you run the 3.90 or 4.11 diff. Furthermore, the slave cylinder on the close ratio is mounted in the proper location. But, the close ratio gearboxes are very expensive. The 245 OD boxes are getting too expensive as well. Most ended up at the wrecking yards where they were crushed. And, now many of you guys are dying to get your hands on one. But, I think they are still over rated.

 

Slavs

[rcf925]

2 hours ago, Slavs said:

All Borg and Warner synchroes have teeth while the Porsche synchroes are tapered and smooth rings. This difference in design accounts for the different feel. The Borg Warner synchroes are notchy or Klicky while the Porsche synchroes feel like a hot knife through butter. I don't think many of you have driven an early 02 with the original Porsche synchroed gearbox in good working condition.

 

The only 5 speed conversion I think would work well on these cars is the 5 speed close ratio gearbox with Porsche synchroes. You can get an overdrive out of 5th by going to the 3.45 rear diff. And, your 1st and 2nd gear wouldn't be crunched up and too close together like they are with the 245 when you run the 3.90 or 4.11 diff. Furthermore, the slave cylinder on the close ratio is mounted in the proper location. But, the close ratio gearboxes are very expensive. The 245 OD boxes are getting too expensive as well. Most ended up at the wrecking yards where they were crushed. And, now many of you guys are dying to get your hands on one. But, I think they are still over rated.

 

Slavs

 

I've driven those early ones, They do shift smooth but you have to baby syncros, especially 2nd gear. I think that's the weak point

[Gordon]

My second 02 had a 5-speed conversion done in 1984 and all of my 02's and tii's since then have had 5 speed conversion's as well. No regrets, would do it again in a heartbeat (but would hate paying the going price for a Getrag 245 gearbox). If there were two identical tii's like yours for sale, one stock and one with a 5-speed, I would buy the 5-speed tii (and pay more for it).

 

 

[Zorac]

1 hour ago, Gordon said:

My second 02 had a 5-speed conversion done in 1984 and all of my 02's and tii's since then have had 5 speed conversion's as well. No regrets, would do it again in a heartbeat (but would hate paying the going price for a Getrag 245 gearbox). If there were two identical tii's like yours for sale, one stock and one with a 5-speed, I would buy the 5-speed tii (and pay more for it).

 

 

 

the rest of the parts aren't cheap either.  especially for us canucks with the poor Canadian dollar!  I managed to get a 245 locally for a good price, but all the bits to put it in add up!  as a result, my 5 speed is still awaiting install 

[Slavs]

When BMW designed the close ratio, they made 1st gear very long. There were actually three different versions of the close ratio, differing primarily in the length of the 1st gear. The rally or race versions had the longest 1st gear. The problem with the 245 OD 5 is that 1st gear is rendered useless when you go with the 4.10 and 3.90. It just becomes a stump puller with this gearing, especially with the 2 liter. It works better with the short stroke 1.8.

 

As far as the value of your car, it seems the consensus here is that it adds value, but I think it detracts from value when looked at from a more macro view.

 

I have the 245 OD in one of my cars. It was rebuilt by BMW's top gearbox and diff builder who worked for BMW and Max Hoffman. So, it is as god of a 245 as you can get. But, I'm not too impressed, especially with my current diff ratio. And, again, I don't like the way these things shift. Call me picky, but that's me.

[Oldtimerfahrer]

On 4/23/2019 at 8:06 AM, Slavs said:

The 02s are rapidly appreciating in value and approaching collector status, although, still not in the realm of the Porsches such as the 356, 912 and early 911s. The 02 is at a transition point now where there are still a lot of us who were having fun over the years swapping motors, gearboxes and doing all kinds of modifications frowned upon by purists and collectors. Many of us did this because the BMWs were cheap and parts were abundant. But, this is no longer the case. Gone are the days when you can walk into a Pick Your Part Yard and purchase a fairly clean 02 for $600. If you didn't want the entire car, you could have opted for just the engine at $125, or you could have yanked the 245 5 speed from a 320i for the same amount, $125. And, for an additional $75 you could have also yanked the 3.90 LSD diff from the 320is. You get my point ?

 

In the long run, the addition of the 245 OD 5 speed will depreciate the value of your car. Furthermore, it is my opinion that the 245 OD 5 speed is an over rated transmission. I have one on my 67 1600 coupled to a 2 liter motor and a 4.10 LSD. The shift points with this combination give me the impression that I'k driving a truck because the car feels way too under geared. 1st gear is useless and 2nd gear has taken the place of 1st. I can climb moderately steep hills in 5th gear at 2,000 rpms. In comparison to a 2 liter mated to a 4 speed and 3.64, I'm just barely taller in 5th gear. The diff of choice to use with the 245 OD 5 speed is the 3.90, otherwise 5th is too tall for the 3.64 diff. And wit this combo, you're about 10% taller in comparison to the 3.64 with the 4 speed. The 245 OD works better with the short stroke 1.8L 1nd 1.6L motors with short gear ratios and shorter piston strokes.

 

My other car is a 69 1600 with all stock mechanicals, and I would never trade in my Porsche synchroed 4 speed trans for a 245 OD 5 speed. The 245 feels very notchy when shifting. I personally don't like the way it feels. I've been driving both of my cars and comparing the two trannies. The early Porsche synchroed gearboxes are superior. Your 73 does not have this early transmission, but I would still not swap it for a 245.

 

Your car will loose value in the long run if you install the 245 5 speed.

And, it is not all that it is touted to be.

 

The 2002 feels great with the 3.64.

 

Slavs

 

 

 

 

Slavs, I disagree categorically.  Only low mileage showroom examples would lose value if a dope was looking at it. If that would be the reason to haggle...This is not one that the Petersen is going to add to its collection (though very nice) and most of us don't know how many times our 5-digit odometer rolled over. So for the "rest" this is usually a great idea and mates well to a 2 liter engine, but it's not a close-ratio which comes with different issues. I don't like the gap between 1st and 2nd, but the rest is fine. The CR and OD would both raise the value on something someone actually wants to drive. Wallflowers don't need 'em, super original museum pieces don't need em either. I don't think anyone who actually wants to enjoy an 02 would start haggling over the OD box? Would they haggle over mine or the fact my build sheet does not show the LSD my car has? Not likely, I would grin in their face rather than laugh outright and send them packing. I understand matching numbers, but you lost me here.

Andrew

[Slavs]

Call me crazy or an anomaly on this FAQ, but I'm actually contemplating removing my 245OD and replacing it with a Porsche synchroed gearbox. And, I may do this when the slave cylinder goes south. Some of you guys partially remove the 245 OD just to replace the slave cylinder, while others have cut a hatch in the transmission tunnel to get to it. Some of you have beat the transmission tunnel in. But, this is not an option for me as I wear size 14-15 shows in wide. So, I'd like to access my accelerator pedal freely.

[Oldtimerfahrer]

Hi Slavs,

If you have size 14 shoes and have to worry about headroom or lowering the seats to the floor, you have additional considerations ... Me, Joe Normalo 5'10" with size 9.5 fits in just about anything. I didn't wack the tunnel much at all, so my perception is that my tunnel is "normal". That was an interesting point in the recent cocomats thread on varying internal dimensions of the flooring. I would pay more for your car if the OD was in and the Porsche synchro box was included than vice versa. Most drivers would probably agree, the collectors may or may not. If you cut the old tabs, poorly welded the new tabs and jerry rigged the exhaust hanger and rear support on the OD box then it might be a different. Would you say the same for a car with the CR box that was retrofitted? It's obviously way more valuable as a spare part than an OD box, but more difficult to drive in traffic and just as revvy on the highway as the 4-speed. I wouldn't rip it out. I am still contemplating replacing my od box with a CR, but my perception is that I would not do it for the money, that step would not be honored by the market with a price increase that justifies the swap. My car is just a money pit, I invest in  retrofittable changes that make the car faster or more comfortable keeping a period look. I should have bought a second 02 years ago to use for the perfectly good removed parts....so each of us has our personal anomalies...

Andrew

[BEMBA]

I just finish my 5 Speed conversion  in mine 74, my 2do 02 my second 5spd conversion .

Done at Bimmers Only in Bedord Hills NY , Nothing better than an  02 at 3000 RPM cruising  at 70MPH !!!

LOVE IT

[tech71]

12 hours ago, Slavs said:

Call me crazy or an anomaly on this FAQ, but I'm actually contemplating removing my 245OD and replacing it with a Porsche synchroed gearbox. And, I may do this when the slave cylinder goes south. Some of you guys partially remove the 245 OD just to replace the slave cylinder, while others have cut a hatch in the transmission tunnel to get to it. Some of you have beat the transmission tunnel in. But, this is not an option for me as I wear size 14-15 shows in wide. So, I'd like to access my accelerator pedal freely.

Well, if you do and you choose to sell the 245, I would like to step to the front of that line..

[Slavs]

I have to increasingly angle my foot as I step on the accelerator pedal, especially at full throttle. And there is very little room to service / replace the slave. So that’s the trade off for having that overdrive. For those of you who don’t do their own work and can afford a mechanic to do the wrenching, it may be no big deal. But, I dread the day I have to replace and bleed that slave cylinder on my 245 OD.