Questions about autocrossing a mostly stock 76 02

[Bill Meyer]

36 minutes ago, Andrej said:

 

I don't know what street tires you were running, but the question is simple: did you get to the point where you were as fast as you could reasonably expect to be on those tires? If not, then keep running street tires. Those Falkens are going to add lots of grip, but unless the club you run with has a massive lot where they can set up a momentum course, you're going to be way underpowered for those tires, and that's just no fun. Learning how to drive as fast as possible on skinny street tires is way more instructive than buying sticky tires and just driving around. You'll never learn about threshold braking and slip angles on those Falkens (EDIT: not with 100hp at the crank).

 

I'm looking into doing a winter autox (not in my 02) this year. One day on snow tires in some fresh powder will teach more than a full season on stickies.

I'd like to think I'm past that point, but who knows..   Worked at a Go cart track all through college and spent more time driving than working.  I've also done autox on/off for 10 years now, and while national level guys prove I have no particular talent for it, I'm far from the slowest guy out there.  

 

Not sure what street tire you're suggesting, but I've ran on several different types and they all howled, pushed and slid way more that I liked.  

[AceAndrew]

Well, if you started getting carried away the 2002 has historically been very competitive in FSP.  As for swaybars, while you'll see an improvement using ST swaybars, you might consider jumping to the IE swaybars.  Definitely a step above in terms of performance.  You would be hard pressed to find a modern 2002 vintage race car or nationally competitive autocross 02 NOT running them.

 

I also echo the sentiment about needing a proper seat.  You probably noticed the need immediately, haha.

 

Reinforcing trailing arms can be done down the road, but also consider the following (there's more, but these are the basics for someone having fun in their 2002):

1) Reinforcing the driver-side motor mount arm of the subframe (this was colorfully discussed here recently)

2) Seam weld the front control arms

Edited December 4, 2018 by AceAndrew

[02Pilot]

35 minutes ago, Bill Meyer said:

I'd like to think I'm past that point, but who knows..   Worked at a Go cart track all through college and spent more time driving than working.  I've also done autox on/off for 10 years now, and while national level guys prove I have no particular talent for it, I'm far from the slowest guy out there.  

 

Not sure what street tire you're suggesting, but I've ran on several different types and they all howled, pushed and slid way more that I liked.  

 

With those experiences, you're certainly not a beginner, but I saw a lot of guys get onto sticky tires with their non-competitive cars and plateau very quickly. Again, it all depends on what you're looking to do. For me, it was first about car control and second about improving my times over the course of the day. If you want a car that doesn't slide that's your choice, though I'd argue that a 2002 handles best when it's a little slidy. If you're pushing (understeering), that's tire pressures and technique, not lack of grip. (EDIT: Understeering is only going to be worse with sticky tires on a stock suspension, as it will be harder to get the rear end to rotate on the throttle. You will need to trail-brake more in order to dial out the push. Adding negative camber up front will help with turn-in, but this necessitates modifications.) I never heard my tires howl, but then my car isn't exactly quiet and I wasn't focusing on it.

 

Tire choices are pretty limited unless you've got 15" wheels. I admit to not being up on the current crop of tires, but I autox'd on several different types of moderately sporty tires; far more important to me than grip was predictability. Right now I've got BFG Sport Comp-2s on all my cars. At 340TW they're still quite sticky (too much so for the street, really, at least on my 128i) but have good transitional and excellent wet handling characteristics and in 195/50-15 they'd probably be decent autox tires.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Andrej

[TobyB]

Quote

 your biggest problem will be sitting in the stock seats.

Your second limitation will be front camber.  There ain't none, stock.

 

Until you get some, sticky tires will just grip and grip and in back, and the fronts

will not.  Adding some will change your classing, of course, but it's 

probably the defining characteristic of a 'prepped' 2002.

 

Just go drive it- stock, the car is more than capable of hanging on harder

than the tires can grip.

 

t

[Mike Self]

I autocrossed my '69 when it was new and bog stock--Michelin XAS's and all.  Great fun and much more predictable than my previous ride:  a '59 Renault 4CV (with which I won 17+ trophies in the under 1 liter sedan class).  The '02 did fine, but had lots of body lean.

 

If you want to prevent scrapes on your door handles from excessive body lean, larger sway bars will help immeasurably by themselves without making the ride harsher.  For many years I ran 19 mm front and back, but with urethane bushings in front and rubber in back to soften the rear bar, as it really should be smaller than the front (got a good deal on both!). Then I upgraded to a 22mm front, and kept the 19mm rear, but added urethane bushings.  Urethane bushings in the sway bars only come into play when you're cornering, so won't affect ride smoothness like urethane suspension bushings will.  

 

My current setup provides nice, flat cornering.  I also added H&R sport springs, and have had Bilstein HDs for 20+ years (the same ones--they just don't wear out).  Handles well, can't tell much difference in the ride from stock, and is comfortable on long trips.  

 

cheers

mike

Edited December 4, 2018 by mike

[Bill Meyer]

Appreciate all the advice, really digging the 02 community!  

 

I've got E21 Recaro sport seats, so a little better than stock, but we'll see if I stay planted.  I had a ton of fun fine tuning my 67 911, looking forward to the same with the 02.  

 

[NYNick]

58 minutes ago, Bill Meyer said:

Appreciate all the advice, really digging the 02 community!  

 

I've got E21 Recaro sport seats, so a little better than stock, but we'll see if I stay planted.  I had a ton of fun fine tuning my 67 911, looking forward to the same with the 02.  

 

Good luck with getting the 02 to be as much fun as a SWB 67 911. Why would you have EVER sold that? Worth a few 02's these days.

[SaharaX2]

Make sure that you have a strut bar or your radiator support will start buckling or both sides of the radiator where the support is welded to the front fenders. I was running a stock class with stock 13” wheels on my ‘76 and ended up with that issue. My cure was to buy a Miata.

I have a ‘75 02 now I can run in a SM class with IE strut bar, Miller & Norburn Springs and 19mm sway bars with Bilstein Sports. I only autocross the ‘02 occasionally now just play.

With FSP you are ok on non stock size wheels.
Recommend BFG Rival S or Bridgestone RE 71’s 200 treadwear tires if you can get them work driving in warm weather. Some 200 treadwear tires may crack in below freezing temperatures.

Have fun



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[Bill Meyer]

17 minutes ago, NYNick said:

Good luck with getting the 02 to be as much fun as a SWB 67 911. Why would you have EVER sold that? Worth a few 02's these days.

 

Ha!   You nailed it.   It was mostly a financial thing, it wasn't just a 911 but a 911S in bahama yellow.  I couldn't justify having a car worth that much and after 10 years I was getting leery of driving it hard.   Still have my eye open for another 911, but really enjoying the 02 thing right now.    

[SaharaX2]

FYI the last car that rolled over locally at an autocross over 15 years ago was a 2002 With sticky tires and stock suspension.
For a stock car, recommend skinny tires that will slide.


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[NYNick]

48 minutes ago, Bill Meyer said:

 

Ha!   You nailed it.   It was mostly a financial thing, it wasn't just a 911 but a 911S in bahama yellow.  I couldn't justify having a car worth that much and after 10 years I was getting leery of driving it hard.   Still have my eye open for another 911, but really enjoying the 02 thing right now.    

I stand corrected. A 67S is worth half a dozen 02's, maybe more.. I'm not sure I would've made the switch but I get it. I sold an 09 911 Turbo for much the same reason.

 

I've got a 72T that's gotta go if you're interested. Needs some work but rust free. PM me if you want. Good luck with the 02.

 

Nick

[Dug Nichols]

I AutoX'd my mostly stock '76 and had a blast. It has bigger sway bars (22/19), IE stage 1 springs, unknown shocks, and 185/70 r13 tires. Yes, a little bit of body roll -- here's a photo on one of the hardest corners on the track that day. 

 

+1 on the seat -- I have recaro's and the extra side bolster, and pulling the seatbelt TIGHT, is key.

 

Also, put a strap around the battery!

[SaharaX2]

Pull your seatbelt as tight as you can across your lap, unlatch the belt, twist it a half turn and reinsert in the latch.
It will help you stay in the seat.



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[KFunk]

Oh yeah, and if you want to see the body roll on a mostly stock 02 with completely dead shocks, with a somewhat experienced driver, see the first time I ran mine:

 

[SaharaX2]

Nice car!
I would fix the suspension before I put sticky tires on.
This is how someone rolled an “02 at an autocross in Huntsville years ago.
Sticky tires and bad suspension.

I think the guys could have used a few more cones to lay out the course.
They must have used every cone they had.


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