RoyW's custom S14 2002 on BaT

[jgerock]

Roller coaster sales for Vintage cars. Who remembers the crazy prices for Ferrari's and MoPar muscle cars.  Weird how I have more miles on my 69 than Roy's car.  

 

Driving Marshall's M2 on the street is oh so fun (even his former 73 with M10 and my Ansa muffler). Passenger at Summit Point Main track almost as fun when overtaking M3's and Porsche Cayman GT's.

 

The great thing about these cars is that each one has their own personality.  Just read Rob Siegel's CCA post about his three tii's.  We are blessed with the level of enjoyment with these little cars. The articles in BIMMER, Roundel and other magazines help others want what we have.

[ChristopherL]

It's been interesting, many claim to have built "better" M2's since the bids started climbing on the auction...  How do you prove it? (Rhetorical)  Color, design, taste, it's all individual. I might like mustard on my hot dog, you might like ketchup... doesn't make one more right or wrong than another. Roy had a vision, which clearly resonated with multiple magazine features, online articles, awards, and now a very strong sale price.

 

The range of comments across all venues where the auction link landed has been nearly as entertaining as the final 23 minutes of the auction.

What's more interesting, is that here, a forum dedicated to the specific model, is more inclined to cut it down and nit-pick than the public venue, where arguably the average viewer has little to no prior engagement with a 2002.

 

If I were to take a wager, the "rub" here for many is that the 2002 is, by most peoples view, a drivers car, and this car was never "driven." However, if we look at builds specifically for "show cars" - I'm sure many of you have watched a Chip Foose build or Kindigit Design build(...and no, I'm not implying we are on the same plane/level as those individuals), those cars have 2-3x the HP of Roy's car, with far more complex and expensive suspension/brake packages, more extensive and custom bodywork, costing 2-3x the SALE price of Roy's car to build... but since it is a "show car" it's accepted.  Well, that was Roy's goal here. Build a show car with the ability to back up the looks if desired, so why try to cut it down at the knees??

 

As for the speculation on cost, some of you are way off the mark. There's a lot to be said for having the skills and abilities to DIY, which should be a proud achievement, but if you don't assign a value to your time, then your assessment of the "build cost" is likely to fall short.

 

...oh and Marshall, your "memory" of what it cost to build is wrong, I can say that.

 

COOP is spot on - the value at 4PM EST yesterday was determined by EWK and HBK, the 2 bidders who wanted the car. Nothing more, nothing less determined the value than those 2 individuals at that exact moment.

 

Chris

VSR1.com

 

 

 

[Driv3r]

7 minutes ago, ChristopherL said:

It's been interesting, many claim to have built "better" M2's since the bids started climbing on the auction...  How do you prove it? (Rhetorical)  Color, design, taste, it's all individual. I might like mustard on my hot dog, you might like ketchup... doesn't make one more right or wrong than another. Roy had a vision, which clearly resonated with multiple magazine features, online articles, awards, and now a very strong sale price.

 

The range of comments across all venues where the auction link landed has been nearly as entertaining as the final 23 minutes of the auction.

What's more interesting, is that here, a forum dedicated to the specific model, is more inclined to cut it down and nit-pick than the public venue, where arguably the average viewer has little to no prior engagement with a 2002.

 

As for the speculation on cost, some of you are way off the mark. There's a lot to be said for having the skills and abilities to DIY, which should be a proud achievement, but if you don't assign a value to your time, then your assessment of the "build cost" is likely to fall short.

 

...oh and Marshall, your "memory" of what it cost to build is wrong, I can say that.

 

Chris

VSR1.com

 

 

 

 

Chris, I'm sure the owner of said car had put in passion, time, money and effort in building the aforementioned car. This is a 2002 forum so we've all passionately restored or currently restoring 2002s and relay here. Sadly time is not calculated when setting market value (not build value) for a car and build cost was never a subject here. Most of us average viewers were commenting on market value.

 

Yes I have built a better car and my comment was in relation to its ROI and not its color or design taste (but seriously, who has hot dogs with ketchup?). Many members here own better cars. But that doesn't mean this car wasn't good enough. In fact this car was outstanding. We all love to see our assets increase in value who doesn't. But if you pay $125k for a car that has an average market value of less than what its cost (again, it doesn't necessarily mean that it cost less to build it), how do you plan on insuring it when your insurance company value it at $60k? You would end up paying additional insurance premium to keep it at agreed value. That's only one of the reasons most other buyers wont go for $125k BMW 2002. And consequently that would effect its market value. 

 

Most of us here have a fair estimated knowledge of how much everything cost. We've gone through restoration or track car modifications so rest assured we know what it cost to build a car like the one sold for $125k. There is absolutely no debate on how much effort is dedicated in restoring a classic car, I have personally opted to replace every single bolt, nut and screw or have every possible part plated, plastic & rubber material reordered, every wire replaced and renewed and so on. But I think (and that's my personal opinion, not a debate) the true value of a restored "classic" car comes from its originality, its history that could be traced back, its original factory features and how many of the specific model were produced and most importantly, from its market demand and supply availability. So for example, if you live in a country that is near impossible to find a newly restored 2002 and everyone wants one, you could expect to pay a hefty price but if there are plenty of restored 2002s available for sale and not many buyers in the market, the 2002 with s14 engine wont be getting enough market value just because it has s14 engine, even though it should.

 

Speaking of this car, and as far as I can see or read, same or similar suspension, brakes, interior, body, lights, exhaust system, diff, wheels radiator and most other mentioned bits are commonly used by faq members. The S14 engine and CR Getrags are also used by many members here. We are all very familiar with this kind of build. 

 

P.S. Welcome to the forum

 

 

 

[evil02]

    I agree with Driv3r.  It is a very nice car and no question, the work was put in and speaks for itself.  Aside from that, and this is my opinion, there was nothing done that hasn't already been done before. In fact, I feel some area's could have been nicer. Again, my opinion. It's not a bash at all, just different tastes..

 

  Regarding costs etc.. Comparing prices to build a show car in California or Connecticut or "fill in the blank" could be far different to pricing somewhere in the Midwest, etc. There are plenty of guys in small towns who know how to paint. Having a few helpers at $15per hr sanding and one $25per hour painter can knock out a lot of work in 2-3 weeks...

 

  Having some friends who have built motors for Chip Foose, lots of people/shops do it for a discounted to get advertising and they certainly don't mind.  Getting in magazines is as easy as calling them and asking. The few cars that my friends had  published were incredible. The funny part is, when people would call the shop, they would ask where the wheels came from or seats or shift knob, etc.. They would never even mention the bodywork, only superficial crap.. that being said, my friends shop stop putting cars in magazines.

 

  Also having people create a bidding storm to promote their shop or product is not a new concept either(I am certainly not implying that here). I'm just reminding you why I feel the pricing of cars in general cars can vary.

 

  Chris, I feel you should just let the car and the price speak for itself and don't defend your work. You did it and got a good price. The work will come because of it. You don't need to justify anything.

Edited June 15, 2017 by evil02
added content

[BarneyT]

41 years ago at 20 years old when I purchased my 74 2002 and drove it from Austin to my dads house in Galveston to show it off...he came out of the house walked around my little car and ask me how much I had paid for it...when I told him he looked me like I was crazy and said I had no respect for money...in some ways these two bidders have the same affliction...we all have our own taste in how we like our 2002s I've seen 2002s that I liked twice as much sell for half as much...in Dec. my oldest son Kane is moving back to Austin and taking possession of that same 74 I think I kept it so long just to show my dad that it was worth the investment/price...Barney

 

 

[AceAndrew]

11 hours ago, Driv3r said:

Speaking of this car, and as far as I can see or read, same or similar suspension, brakes, interior, body, lights, exhaust system, diff, wheels radiator and most other mentioned bits are commonly used by faq members. The S14 engine and CR Getrags are also used by many members here. We are all very familiar with this kind of build. 

 

P.S. Welcome to the forum

 

 

 

 

Driv3r, Evil

 

  Coming from the experience of supplying vintage BMW parts to well over a thousand enthusiasts, shops, and a couple TV-Shows around the world for the past several years, I can say with certainty that you are a bit incomplete in your thinking (but by no means alone).  

 

  I encourage you to call up any well-respected restomod/restoration shop (VSR, CoupeKing, WerkShop, Korman, VintageBMWRacing, Ronin Autowerks, 2002GarageWerks, Casey Motorsports, SportsCarRestoration, TerrySaytherAutomotive, Midnight Motorsport, RaceCraft, etc.) and you will be quoted something very similar to 125k (or more!).  These are guys who, for the most part, even have wait-lists.  What you are seeing with the last couple high-priced auctions is just a reflection of something that has been happening off-line for some time.

 

  I am all for the quality shed-built enthusiast cars and the professional $$$ brick-and-mortar cars.  They both have a place in our community (part of what makes us awesome).  For any person from either side of the coin opt to complain/attempt-to-refute the other would be "kicking against the pricks".

 

 Driv3r, Chris has been an FAQ member since 2007.  That predates me.

 

All the best,

Andrew

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by AceAndrew

[evil02]

1 minute ago, AceAndrew said:

 

Driv3r, Evil

 

  Coming from the experience of supplying vintage BMW parts to well over a thousand enthusiasts, shops, and a couple TV-Shows around the world for the past several years, I can say with certainty that you are a bit incomplete in your thinking (but by no means alone).  

 

  I encourage you to call up any well-respected restomod/restoration shop (VSR, CoupeKing, WerkShop, Korman, VintageBMWRacing, 2002GarageWerks, Casey Motorsports, SportsCarRestoration, TerrySaytherAutomotive, Midnight Motorsport, RaceCraft, etc.) and you will be quoted something very similar to 125k (or more!).  These are guys who, for the most part, even have wait-lists.  What you are seeing with the last couple high-priced auctions is just a reflection of something that has been happening off-line for some time.

 

  I am all for the quality shed-built enthusiast cars and the professional $$$ brick-and-mortar cars.  They both have a place in our community (part of what makes us awesome).  For any person from either side of the coin opt to complain/attempt-to-refute the other would be "kicking against the pricks".

 

 Driv3r, Chris has been an FAQ member since 2007.  That predates me.

 

All the best,

Andrew

 

 

Andrew,

 

    I believe forums exist for sharing one's passion for whatever the forum is. Agreeing and disagreeing is natural. Regardless of who has been on the forums the longest, without knowing me or my background, it is very naive to say "I'm incomplete in my thinking". I respectfully disagree and it's Ok.

 

   I'm just saying, I feel it is possible for a car to be built as good or better by "insert any talented persons name" other than who you listed. Regardless of if it is built as a "quality shed build" or by a  "brick & mortar shop", if at the end of the day it is the same similar quality of build, it is worth whatever someone will pay for it. To me, I don't feel the need to pay more because it came from a well know shop. I know they need to make living off it, pay people, keep the lights on, put food on the table, buy machinery, etc.. That's business, that's not value added to the car.

 

   No disrespect but, if you have been in the industry, there is a lot of "learning while earning" going on too. Not everyone is as good as one may think.(note - I am NOT implying anyone you mentioned is doing that), just saying.. There are also many "shops" working out of their basements/garages that rival brick and mortar shops. Some are good, some are bad. Lots of choices but, you do your homework and make the best decision possible. If you want to sleep good, you go with what you know..

 

Life is good and with internet forums.

 

 

 

[COOP]

 

I believe that Andrew's point in mentioning Chris's tenure here on the FAQ was to respond to Driv3r's "PS Welcome to the Forum," which read as a rather disingenuous and condescending expression of "you're clearly an FAQ rookie who doesn't know what he's talking about." If that's not what he intended, than apologies in advance...but it certainly came off that way and I know I'm not the only one who thought so.

 

It seems rather inelegant and not very intelligent to say things like "I have built a better car" and "many members here own better cars." Inelegant because we're talking about something that represents the fruit of people's (people with feelings) love, creativity and labor; not very intelligent because "better" is such a highly subjective term, not by any means a black & white absolute, anymore than it is with a painting, a bottle of wine or architecture.  I am lucky enough to own two 2002s, one being a bone-stock '72 tii and the other being a highly custom, '73 M2 2.5 tii.  While I personally feel they're both "top 10%" cars, I would never dream of saying that either one was "better" that anyone else's baby because, well that's just not very classy or nice and I wouldn't want to come off like a churlish vulgarian.

 

It seems odd to conclude that a car is somehow not special because certain of its features (brakes, wheels, diff, interior, Getrag, S14, etc) "have been done before."  I say this because the magic of that Inka M2 is not just in some of its parts...it's in the sum of its parts, which were artfully interpreted, assembled and expressed in an absolutely unique and impeccably executed manner. The result is undeniable magic, even if one doesn't like some of its creative choices (those speaker pods!).

 

COOP

[evil02]

Coop,

 

 I agree and not taking a stab at anyone or anything really. I'm an engineer so, I ask a lot of questions..  I was just trying to say, there are many ways to do everything. Its up to the buyer to determine the price, not the actual person/shop or sum of parts.

 

AND Yes, I am a 2002FAQ noob so, take everything I say with a grain of salt. Hopefully someday, I can turn that around

 

 

[ChristopherL]

Gents,

 

I've been around for a long time. I just don't post.

I saw what I believe is COOP's car before it ever left Vermont. (Apologies, COOP, if I'm confusing my M2's)

I saw Gary Bosserts old Agave Green M2, painted in Laquer, when it was an early M2 conversion.

I remember Ian's "ground breaking" M2 conversion, when almost nobody had done it. Dial Up internet days...

I still have the magazine article from the black "Der Hocken" 2002 (Black '74 with Zender airdam and the namesake - red tow hook), which was not an M2, but pre-dates this forum.

I was here when "Bluntech" got its start when Blunt was building his orange M2, and started selling chrome trim and gaskets because he found a niche of '02 guys who couldn't find the right parts.

Simple point being, lack of posts does not indicate time or exposure, all the time.

 

We built Roy's car over 10 years ago. Many of the amazing performance parts we all are accustomed to now, were not available or even on-market at that time. Time has moved on, I would certainly hope, in the past 10 years, that another build of equivalent/better quality would occur (If not, then we'd really be in trouble for the future of this hobby/passion), and would utilize what is new and progressive.  That doesn't take away from what the car is.

 

I'm not here to say it's the best, worst, better, or otherwise. My mother taught me better manners than that. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I respect all of them.

I may not agree, but I'm not here to cut down others hard work. 

 

Driv3r - I'm not familiar with your car, but would love to see a build log if you have one. It's always awesome to see others paths and custom touches. It sounds like you're really investing your heart in the build!

evil02 - I don't need to wait for the "work to come" -  "The work" has long ago, already arrived. There is a wait list, and it continues to grow, which is the only frustrating fact. These are peoples passion, and "waiting" is the hardest part.

 

At the end of the day, the sale is done. We can Monday Morning quarter back it all day, but it doesn't change a thing.

We are all here for, theoretically, the same thing... a passion for an old boxy BMW.

 

Now, I'll go back in my corner and play with my project Alpina flared track car. Maybe one day I'll be able to show it off, and Marshall will give me a thumbs of for flogging the pants off it instead of using Zymol. Of course, that will have to happen in the pits, as it will only have an M10, no S14, so he'll be too fast...

 

Kind Regards,

-Chris

 

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by ChristopherL

[evil02]

6 minutes ago, ChristopherL said:

evil02 - I don't need to wait for the "work to come" -  "The work" has long ago, already arrived. There is a wait list, and it continues to grow, which is the only frustrating fact. These are peoples passion, and "waiting" is the hardest part.

Kind Regards,

-Chris

 

 

Chris, I think you miss read my quote. I never said "wait" for the work.  I said,

 

 "Chris, I feel you should just let the car and the price speak for itself and don't defend your work. You did it and got a good price. The work will come because of it. You don't need to justify anything."

 

It was a compliment.. but, glad your doing fine..

 

[ChristopherL]

12 minutes ago, evil02 said:

Chris, I think you miss read my quote. I never said "wait" for the work.  I said,

 

 "Chris, I feel you should just let the car and the price speak for itself and don't defend your work. You did it and got a good price. The work will come because of it. You don't need to justify anything."

 

It was a compliment.. but, glad your doing fine..

 

I did misinterpret, I apologize!

 

Best,

-Chris

Edited June 15, 2017 by ChristopherL

[COOP]

1 hour ago, ChristopherL said:

I saw what I believe is COOP's car before it ever left Vermont. (Apologies, COOP, if I'm confusing my M2's)

 

Cool Chris!!  Long time ago...Kermit Upton III, MASR in Ludlow VT, circa 1994 I believe. 

 

What an incredibly powerful and reliable 2.5L motor that man built me, the highest output that I've ever heard of from an S14 (260 + RWHP) with Dyno Sheets to prove it.

 

COOP

[zinz]

I applaud the civil discourse...differing opinions stated and respected.  Thank you all for restoring some faith in mankind.  

 

Ed Z

[Driv3r]

6 hours ago, AceAndrew said:

 

Driv3r, Evil

 

  Coming from the experience of supplying vintage BMW parts to well over a thousand enthusiasts, shops, and a couple TV-Shows around the world for the past several years, I can say with certainty that you are a bit incomplete in your thinking (but by no means alone).  

 

  I encourage you to call up any well-respected restomod/restoration shop (VSR, CoupeKing, WerkShop, Korman, VintageBMWRacing, Ronin Autowerks, 2002GarageWerks, Casey Motorsports, SportsCarRestoration, TerrySaytherAutomotive, Midnight Motorsport, RaceCraft, etc.) and you will be quoted something very similar to 125k (or more!).  These are guys who, for the most part, even have wait-lists.  What you are seeing with the last couple high-priced auctions is just a reflection of something that has been happening off-line for some time.

 

  I am all for the quality shed-built enthusiast cars and the professional $$$ brick-and-mortar cars.  They both have a place in our community (part of what makes us awesome).  For any person from either side of the coin opt to complain/attempt-to-refute the other would be "kicking against the pricks".

 

 Driv3r, Chris has been an FAQ member since 2007.  That predates me.

 

All the best,

Andrew

 

 

 

Andrew, I agree. though my points were repeatedly taken off subject. Never meant to disrespect any shop owner and my apologies in advance to you and other shop owners.

 

Chris has 5 posts in this forum and at the time he had 3 submitted and that constituted a welcome post!

 

Cheers