engine and drivetrain No money to tune, Going it my own. Weber DCOE40-32's Schrick 292

[whs.de]

1 hour ago, 2002Scoob said:

 

Nope, not yet. Finding approvals and and paper work is something I haven't gotten to yet. If you have some recommendations on where to start looking, I'd love the help!  I had just planned to take it over to the local TUV station once it's completed and ask them what I would need to get it through, and start from there. 

It would be better to ask before tuning. But ok, I think you should use the Alpina A0 (I will give you a link by PM) Gutachten. It works -115PS and with 40 Weber and Solex.  So you can use the small brakes. If you have TI brakes you can say, I have a standard 2Liter TI Engine 120PS but there are problems with parts, so I do not use Solex, I use Weber. Use a correct airbox! They do not like noise emission at the TÜV! Use a standard TI airbox, everything else could be a problem- no Gutachten!

Important, do not forget the AU! You need a co tester.

Do not tell the Tüv engineers too much, make everything fine, use standard parts (TI) as much as you have and everything will be good. If you use a electrical fuelpump, use an automatic safety switch off! 

And use choke size 34. Or why have you tuned your engine? I use a standard 2Liter TI engine in my 1600-2 streetcar and 34 is the minimum. Do not save money at the wrong end.

W.

[2002Scoob]

Oh boy. Thanks W! I really appreciate it. I don't know how you guys handle it. 

 

Germany.... Where they make is as difficult as possible to have the not-as-fun car that they want you to have, not the fun car that you want to build. Story of my life. 

 

TUV gave me months of trouble over getting H-Plates because I had the H&R Sport Cup Kit installed. I basically had to show up 3-4 times in a row without changing a thing, till they got so annoyed by having to re-inspect that they finally approved my perfectly good car with a better, safer suspension. 

 

10 hours ago, whs.de said:

Use a correct airbox! They do not like noise emission at the TÜV! Use a standard TI airbox, everything else could be a problem- no Gutachten!

 

This will be a problem... I will have spent allot of time and money getting the airbox solution I feel is best for what I want on the car, and have no interest in tracking down and spending more time and money for a factory airbox that I don't want to run. Plus, those setups aren't cheap! I hear plenty of new, big AMG Mercedes that are WAY louder than my little 02. I might take the "get annoying" route I went with my suspension unless somebody close has an intake I could borrow. 

 

11 hours ago, whs.de said:

Important, do not forget the AU! You need a co tester.

 What is the AU/ co-tester you are referring to? 

 

11 hours ago, whs.de said:

Do not tell the Tüv engineers too much, make everything fine, use standard parts (TI) as much as you have and everything will be good. If you use a electrical fuelpump, use an automatic safety switch off! 

And use choke size 34. Or why have you tuned your engine? I use a standard 2Liter TI engine in my 1600-2 streetcar and 34 is the minimum. Do not save money at the wrong end.

 

Haha, I plan to tell them nothing, other than I put on some Weber Carburetors. 

 

As for choke size, If I can get her up and running and running well with what I have, I'll be happy for now.

 

All the money that I would have paid somebody else to tune I am spending on the tools that will let me tune myself, so that in the future I can make changes and upgrade/modify, and it won't cost me any more money other than Jets, Chokes, etc. So I think I'm spending my money well at this moment. 

 

Thanks for all the help/recommendations, navigating old car/historic car bureaucracy in Germany is really challenging even if you're from here and speak the language, and i'm neither of these things!

[whs.de]

3 hours ago, 2002Scoob said:

Oh boy. Thanks W! I really appreciate it. I don't know how you guys handle it. 

I have atteched the Alpina A1 "Gutachten" here as pdf file.

Quote

Germany.... Where they make is as difficult as possible to have the not-as-fun car that they want you to have, not the fun car that you want to build. Story of my life. 

In their eyes a historic car is not a fun car. It is technical culture and you have to save it.
 For example the H&R Cup kit is a.) not historic b.) no existing "Gutachten" , that means there is no evidence for, in your opinion, safer Suspension.

Quote

TUV gave me months of trouble over getting H-Plates because I had the H&R Sport Cup Kit installed. I basically had to show up 3-4 times in a row without changing a thing, till they got so annoyed by having to re-inspect that they finally approved my perfectly good car with a better, safer suspension. 

 

 

This will be a problem... I will have spent allot of time and money getting the airbox solution I feel is best for what I want on the car, and have no interest in tracking down and spending more time and money for a factory airbox that I don't want to run. Plus, those setups aren't cheap! I hear plenty of new, big AMG Mercedes that are WAY louder than my little 02. I might take the "get annoying" route I went with my suspension unless somebody close has an intake I could borrow. 

What is your plan for an airbox? This is a critical Point and there are not many Options. But the best choice is TI airbox, this is the guarantee for "no Problems"

Quote

 What is the AU/ co-tester you are referring to? 

You know the AU (Emission test) 4% co in idle? It Needs a bit more Feeling to adjust co with twin webers. So you Need a gauge to check co in idle.

Quote

 

Haha, I plan to tell them nothing, other than I put on some Weber Carburetors. 

 

As for choke size, If I can get her up and running and running well with what I have, I'll be happy for now.

 

All the money that I would have paid somebody else to tune I am spending on the tools that will let me tune myself, so that in the future I can make changes and upgrade/modify, and it won't cost me any more money other than Jets, Chokes, etc. So I think I'm spending my money well at this moment. 

 

Thanks for all the help/recommendations, navigating old car/historic car bureaucracy in Germany is really challenging even if you're from here and speak the language, and i'm neither of these things!

 

Yes it is a challenge :-) But, I have a group2 racecar street legal here in Germany, so everything is possible if you do it right!

alpina_a1.pdf

[2002Scoob]

8 minutes ago, whs.de said:

In their eyes a historic car is not a fun car. It is technical culture and you have to save it.
 For example the H&R Cup kit is a.) not historic b.) no existing "Gutachten" , that means there is no evidence for, in your opinion, safer Suspension.

 

The TUV said it was an 'improper Optic'. And I would definitely say it's safer than the 40 year old springs and dampers that were in there. 

 

 When I purchased my car I had been working with a Dekra engineer for what I planned and what could be approved with H-Plates. From what I understand, the normal H&R Sport kit is considered approved, but he said the Cup Kit was OK. It wasn't until he remembered I purchased the car in Holland, and needed import registration, which required me to go the big central TUV station...Where all my troubles began. But... that's another story that would take at least 4-5 beers. 

 

17 minutes ago, whs.de said:

What is your plan for an airbox? This is a critical Point and there are not many Options. But the best choice is TI airbox, this is the guarantee for "no Problems"

I'm modifying a large single-foam element to fit, adding a clearance cut to clear the brake booster. I'm sure TUV will not approve. Below you can see I'm mocking up a cardboard copy to test the clearance cut.

 

24 minutes ago, whs.de said:

You know the AU (Emission test) 4% co in idle? It Needs a bit more Feeling to adjust co with twin webers. So you Need a gauge to check co in idle.

 

Ahhhh, yes aware of this one. Hopefully through adjusting by AFR I can get it close to what's needed. I was able to tweak my stock solex DIDTA blindly till it passed. 

 

 

[2002Scoob]

Sooo, nerding out today after work...

Mechanical Synchronizing with light!

I measured and matched the height of the linkage uprights to 45mm

And the arms to 110mm, and made sure that all throttle valves were closed before tightening down the push arms to the pivot rod.

I then used an LED torch to adjusted the idle screw till the back carb was showing a half-circle of light through the first progression hole, luckily both barrels are close on the back carb.

The front carb, however, was way off, so I then went to the push arms to adjust the until I had matching half-moons of light through the 1st progression hole.

But.... And I don't know if you can see, but the throttle plate rod must be slightly torqued, as the front most barrel is half a hair off of the other three. We'll see if there's a noticeable difference.

I then checked gap from insides the barrels and they all look matched, you can see the first progression hole getting revealed here.

After that, I adjusted the idle screw till the 2nd progression hole was half revealed, and verified it across all 4 barrels.

Feeling pretty good right now

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[TobyB]

Yup.  You have practiced several of the many rituals that are needed to make DCOEs manageable on the street....

 

...you have some chickens for later, right?

 

hee

 

t

 

[2002Scoob]

Oh man, sounds like I'm on the right track! What other black-art voodoo can I do to better my chances of success?

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[Drosselhebel]

You're doing it right. Get the mechanical syncronisation happy, and the calibration via jetting and chokes becomes [relatively] easy. This carb sync tool works very well in my experience - some people hate them and prefer the snail type, but it's very difficult to fit the snail type on cylinder #3.

 

You've obviously done your homework on the mechanical setup (it looks beautiful). Those particular steel throttle levers can have a tendency to slip on the relay shaft. You can roughen them on the I.D. with a round file, and file a little material away from the pinch/clamping surfaces to give them a little more snug fit. Once you've verified proper sync, a small tack weld between the levers and relay shaft is not a bad idea (you'll still have fine adjustment on the drop links). Or, you can weld the levers to 2-piece split collars for a more secure grip, 8mm or 5/16" work fine.

 

On a similar engine with a bit more compression I used F16 emulsion tubes, .135 main jets, .190 air correctors, 55f9 idle jets, and .40 pump jets with 35mm chokes with good results (about 120 RWHP). On the dyno I had slightly better horsepower with .140 main jets, but the driveability felt better most of the time with .135. Make sure your distributor is working properly and set ignition timing for ~34 degrees total advance, assuming high octane pump gas.

 

Measurement is the key. A wideband oxygen sensor will tell you everything you need to know and is cheaper than dyno time.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Drosselhebel
added info

[2002Scoob]

Great tips on the linkage Drossel unfortunately I don't have access to a welder, and I'm hesitant to tack weld, but we shall see if they hold fast. I might put some permanent lock-tite on there and see if that's enough with the roughing of the shafts/ID.

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[2002Scoob]

Further update, forked over the remainder of my bank account to the guy who rebuilt the head. Eye-wateringly expensive... Ohwell. Painful German lesson learned. This thing better rip, and be trouble free.

Went ahead and replaced all the exhaust and intake studs, not because they needed to be, but because new just looks nice

Going to maybe get to a dry assembly tonight so I can start mocking up the air-filter setup. I need to get new cam sprocket hardware, and find those little metal locking tabs somewhere.

And just for my own peace of mind I might clay the cylinders to check clearance to the Pistons

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[2002Scoob]

Screw dry assembly. Full gas!

Would the experienced please double check my work please?

I wiped down the cylinder bores and made sure they were free of contaminants. I then applied a slight coating of oil to the cylinder walls, and then wiped down the mating surfaces with brake cleaner, and dropped on the Victor Rinz head gasket. The bottom end was rotated to give clearance to the valves on installation.

I didn't use any additional additive gasket sealant. I've seen some mention using the copper spray, but the instructions with the gasket said to not use anything additional.

After that, I went to torquing down the head bolts after giving them a light coat of engine oil.

I followed torquing procedure to 60 ft lbs. then waited the recommended 15 minutes, then using my spiffy angle gauge, gave em a 33 degree twist in the previous torque order.

After that, the cam was rotated to TDC, with the mark on the cam pointed in line with the oil feed, afterwards the bottom end was rotated to TDC using the mark on the crank pulley.

You can see the white line on the pulley and the pin that points off the block at it.

Everything look good so far?

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[TobyB]

Quote

60 ft lbs. then waited the recommended 15 minutes, then using my spiffy angle gauge, gave em a 33 degree twist in the previous torque order.

60??  That's final torque, if you're not using the angle method.

Has the head gasket extruded out from between the head and the block?

 

Torque angle method is something like 30 NM, then 30, wait, then 30 more.  Or something along those lines....

 

Quote

After that, the cam was rotated to TDC, with the mark on the cam pointed in line with the oil feed, afterwards the bottom end was rotated to TDC using the mark on the crank pulley.

Oh, more sadness.  The cam and crank should be tdc'd before the 2 ever meet, then the chain goes on before either's allowed to turn.

 

Were they really close, so you just had to rock the cam and crank a bit?  Or did you start with the bottom 45 off tdc, time the cam, THEN time the bottom?  Without going past 180?

Both of those scenarios are benificent for your poor valves... 

 

t

 

[arminyack]

I think he'll be ok. I flubbed this this so badly in the past that I actually broke a rocker when I torqued the crankshaft nut when #4 piston was hitting #4 exhaust valve...and I still didnt bend the valve!

[2002Scoob]

51 minutes ago, TobyB said:

60??  That's final torque, if you're not using the angle method.

Has the head gasket extruded out from between the head and the block?

 

Torque angle method is something like 30 NM, then 30, wait, then 30 more.  Or something along those lines....

 

I'm pretty sure I got it right, Toby.

 

The directions that came with the head gasket have a 4 step process, I think I went over this in a previous topic asking some questions.

 

With the headgasket it has a 4 step instruction method-

 

1. Torque headbolts to 60nm + or - 2

2. Wait 15 minutes, add 33 degrees rotation + or - 3 degress

3. Warm engine to opperating tempurature

4. Add another 25 degrees + or - 2 or something... I Forget. 

 

I'll take a photo when I'm back in the workshop in a bit. 

 

51 minutes ago, TobyB said:

Oh, more sadness.  The cam and crank should be tdc'd before the 2 ever meet, then the chain goes on before either's allowed to turn.

 

Were they really close, so you just had to rock the cam and crank a bit?  Or did you start with the bottom 45 off tdc, time the cam, THEN time the bottom?  Without going past 180?

Both of those scenarios are benificent for your poor valves... 

 

 

 

Don't be sad Toby! There was no risk of interference. I may have not done it the most "proper way" by setting the camshaft to TDC first (probably should have), But, I had the cylinders down in their bores when I installed the head.

 

After installing the head, I then rotated the camshaft to TDC, then rotated the bottom end to meet the top end. This shouldn't have given anything an opportunity to touch or connect.

 

I maybe had to turn the crank pulley all of 20-30 degrees to get it back to TDC. Before I put on the head, I set the bottom to TDC, then slightly clocked it off of TDC to give the valves clearance. 

 

Edited July 17, 2016 by 2002Scoob

[2002Scoob]

Here ya go, 

 

This if from my "would you slap a head on it" post, and has the torquing procedure I've followed, Fish Sticks and all