engine and drivetrain (UPDATED 2/7/12) Is this 02 a good buy?

[krnzilla]

New to the forum.

I'm talking to a lady about buying her 1975 '02. However, I don't know much about the car let alone buying an almost 40 year old car. What should be my main concern? Anything I should be aware of? Any info would be helpful. Just think of it as if you were buying this car; what would you be looking out for? I have attached a few pics the owner has sent me. I can ask for more pics if it will help. Additional info: She's asking 5k. 2nd owner. 200k mileage. She said its needs transmission work(Don't know what she exactly means by this but will ask her more about it)

Thanks in advance.

UPDATE 2/7/12

http://s702.photobucket.com/albums/ww27/jameskim1116/

The owner said:

-she's owned the car since 1976, bought it from a friend 1 year after it was transported from Germany(car is a 1975 so you do the math).

-maintained by the same mechanic for as long as she's had it.

-automatic transmission

-the transmission doesn't shift as you accelerate, won't change gears at all.

-rust on floor of trunk, under front bumper, and rear strut towers.

-clear title

-said the car has sat idle but didn't say for how long. But she did say she's been retired since 2001. Hope it hasn't been sitting for 11 years..

also, she's an elderly lady and has trouble with opening/closing the hood and trunk which is why she's only able to take exterior pics.

[Beck180]

For 5K, it better be as rust free as brand new car. Check the rear shock towers and front passenger footwell for rust.

Paint looks well, but with no engine bay pics it is tough to tell how it might be mechanically.

A big bumper 2002 with 200K miles for $5,000?? Others on this forum will be able to judge more appropriately, but that seems kind of steep.

[Motorcitydak]

The transmissions for those can be found for around 300 but I agree, 5k for a car that needs one is too steep.....unless its a Tii. If so then it is more around where it should be. If its just a carb'd 02, maybe 3k is more realistic

[krnzilla]

For 5K, it better be as rust free as brand new car. Check the rear shock towers and front passenger footwell for rust.

Paint looks well, but with no engine bay pics it is tough to tell how it might be mechanically.

A big bumper 2002 with 200K miles for $5,000?? Others on this forum will be able to judge more appropriately, but that seems kind of steep.

Appreciate the reply. Taking notes as I speak. I should be getting more detailed pics from the owner tmrw morning.

[krnzilla]

The transmissions for those can be found for around 300 but I agree, 5k for a car that needs one is too steep.....unless its a Tii. If so then it is more around where it should be. If its just a carb'd 02, maybe 3k is more realistic

Good to know the transmission is cheap. I don't think it's a tii but will ask the owner. Thanks for the reply.

[Guest Anonymous]

The seats are 75 or 76 so I am betting it is not a Tii.

Does it have AC? Depending on where you are and noting the plates of heaven... It might. That will add value if you desire it.

Check the dash for cracks, if it is a sun baked car then the interior is going to give and that will be expensive.

Paint looks good from here like it is not an outdoor car.

Pull the spare out and look for rust, check the rear parcel shelf for water damage. Pull a front grill off with a Phillips and look up looking for surface rust.

If everything is clean and shiny then 5k is a little high for a bad transmission car but not too far off.

These are getting harder to find clean.

Anything a miss then I would walk as there are clean examples still out there in that price range.

Also check the suspension. You are looking at about $800 to get it back to spec plus labor that doubles that cost unless you do it yourself.

Note that these are not cheap to restore!

[c.d.iesel]

yea - come back with photos - close up of the motor room,

interior, and the trunk with the spare tire removed - all easy

to do but will tell pages more - for this long distance appraisal.

you need to 'try' driving the car - transmission trouble or not.

very common - inexpensive failure is the shifter support flopping

But if the trans itself is toast - you need to deduct right off the

start for you to pay for parts and labor.

so first blush, car that may not drive home, 200.000+? miles,

it would have to be rust free in the important areas and then

$1000 - 2,500 is more in line - THE CAR NEEDS WORK.

REPAIRS ARE EXPENSIVE - do you do any repairs yourself?

now if this car can drive without 'issues', it's relatively free of needing

safety related repairs (wheel bearings, exhaust, cooling system, all electrical working, brakes working, window seals not leaking......?)

then your closer to $3000.

200,000+ miles and lord knows how the car has been/not been maintained. Rear wheel bearings, clutch, exhaust, seats will add up BIG.

get us some more CLOSE photos

[Mike Self]

1. From the pictures, no sunroof. Not a bad thing, but still a nice option

2. Not the most desirable color (I know, everyone has their own preferences)

3. Betcha the "tranny" trouble is either a shot second gear synchronizer, a worn out clutch, a bad guibo/center support bearing--or possibly a bad tranny mount. These last three items will cause all sorts of driveline vibrations and strange noises. Driving it will reveal a bad clutch and 2nd gear synchro. 75's have 215mm clutches, not as long lived as the roundies, which have 228mm clutches.

4. At 200k the engine should have been rebuilt. 75s have a reputation for ovalized cylinder bores, which require re-ringing at relatively low mileage for an M10 engine. They're also saddled with the infamous thermal reactor exhaust manifold, a great lump of iron that causes the engine to run hot and the manifold studs to pull out. Check to see if it's gone. Hope it is. Smoke on the overrun=worn valve guides/stem seals; smoke on acceleration=worn rings.

Bottom line--from your description and pictures, and without more information, the price seems high. Either send more info, do some serious dickering or walk.

cheers

mike

[malagalaga]

Where are you located? In Texas, I assume?

If it was mechanically solid, I'd say there's a good chance that the $5,000 asking price is fairly reasonable. Posts about pricing on this thread seem to draw in the commenters who think this is 1987 and '02s are just used cars in great supply... unfortunately, they're not. They're cheapest in California, where they're still fairly plentiful, but then you have to tack on the transportation costs of getting one to you. To Texas, that's around $700. So I advise the Californians to look at this one as though it is $4,300 :-)

A few things I noticed from the photos...

- It is an unusual color, which adds to the relative rarity but also might decrease the potential market size (these cars are not bought for their rarity).

- The transmission issue is a concern. Is it an automatic? A manual? If it's an automatic, it's ripe for a five-speed swap since automatics have a larger transmission tunnel. Figure spending $700-1,200 if you choose to do this.

- It appears unmolested, but I notice some cracking (I think?) at the top corners between the turn signals and the grille. This indicates that the front fascia has probably been replaced. This is common but worth investigating.

- Otherwise, the paint appears to be even and the body looks straight. It has the rock coating in the rockers where it was from the factory, which is a good thing.

-The inspection stickers in the window expired in 2009 and 2010, which indicates that it has probably been off the road for a couple of years. If it was stored in a climate controlled garage and was regularly started up and driven around the block, this is probably not a concern. But the odds of that happening? Pretty slim.

- Lots of fading from the red reflectors and the roundels, which suggests to me that it has spent plenty of time in the Texas sun.

- 200k should not scare you off if the car has been maintained (and it probably has if it has reached that point).

I see that the home security sign in the front yard from Dallas Security Systems, so odds are pretty good that the car is here. Looks like north or east Dallas inside the 635 loop, though those photos are definitely not recent. We have a pretty strong local community here. I know one of us (like myself) would be happy to come check the car out with you if you're local (or to do a much-recommended pre-purchase inspection if you're not local!).

Feel free to send me an email (above or bmw 1600 dfw AT gmail DOT com - remove the spaces!).

[MikeD]

Do I see the word Automatic on the rear? You didn't specify if it was a 4 speed or auto.

[beammmer]

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/content/view/80/32/

This will help with many questions.

Don

[eastsidebimmer]

I'm going to go against the grain a little and say that this looks like a very nice car for the money. As others have pointed out, it's an automatic (badge is visible on zoom) and your choices are fix the automatic or just scrap it all and convert to a 5 speed manual trans. The auto boxes are the best to convert anyway...lots of info on this available via search. If it were me, I'd go see it in person, if the exterior is fine and needs no bodywork, the interior is livable with no tears or wavy broken down upholstery and it runs and will move around in whatever gears are left, I'd have no problem laying down $4,500, spending a grand on a 5-speed conversion and enjoy the heck out of it, rare color and everything. ---- But go see it and take some pictures and get a feel for the owner....supermodels always look good in photographs, its only later on that you learn they have substantial behavioral problems too.

Ben

[Conserv]

You've probably already gotten more input than you needed: most of it excellent IMO.

Assume the car has been repainted at least once: it's metallic (Granatrot-metallic, color code 025) and the original '70s metallics were lucky to last 5 years, even if garage-kept. It may be a reflection, but the driver's door seems to be a slight mismatch, perhaps repainted after the whole-car repaint. Points off if the color is not original but I don't suspect it's been changed: owners have not flocked to paint Inka cars Granatrot-metallic and the beige interior is most common on Granatrot-metallic cars.

Repair of an automatic transmission is unlikely to be less than $600 and could be lots more. Which may make a 5-speed conversion more appealing not only from a driving standpoint but from a financial standpoint. Note, though, that some nuts (this nut, for instance) place greater value on originality than driving pleasure! The long-term market will probably reward original cars more.

The passenger's windshield wiper looks to be a pre-'75 stainless unit. Seats look "full" and thus have probably, at minimum, had their padding replaced.

It really looks to be a clean, few-owner, garage-kept car. I hope it has as little rust as the photos suggest. But $5K still seems a bit steep for an automatic, non-sunroof '75 in a currently-not-favored color, with, at minimum, a transmission that needs work! You need to ask why this car been parked since 2010.

Steve

[c.d.iesel]

wish we could see under the hood - left and right sides

is this car 025 Granatrot-Met ?

and am I seeing rot behind left rear wheel ?

if it needs a replacement Automatic, or a 5-speed transplant

buyer better budget $2000 for parts+labor+tax

[Conserv]

I'm certainly with C.D. on this. If your experience and skill set would make you comfortable doing an automatic-to-5-speed conversion by yourself in your garage, $1,000 is possible; but if you're paying someone else to completely overhaul an automatic, or do the conversion, think $2,000.

Oddly, Granatrot-metallic seemed almost as common as Sienabraun-metallic back in the day (PA, NJ, NY, CT corridor). But it's pretty un-common today. The two Granatrot-metallic cars for whom I knew the owners were both automatics with beige interiors; probably entirely accidental but automatics were very rare in my experience.

Steve