engine and drivetrain Crazy engine swaps

[Pancake]

Now I'm imagining an 02 with a street ported 20b in it.... damn that thing would move. Of course, for that sort of money I would rather have a heavily built turbo M10, but still, got to love the sound (and revs) of a rotary

[dp]

Now I'm imagining an 02 with a street ported 20b in it.... damn that thing would move. Of course, for that sort of money I would rather have a heavily built turbo M10, but still, got to love the sound (and revs) of a rotary

Mike, a 20B isn't that 'spensive now is it?

[BarryA]

built 1st gen Taurus SHO dohc V6 at one point - it's a very light (aluminum block) & compact engine, the intake runners are symetrical so they can be reversed, and the accessories (alternator, etc) bolt tight to front of the block.

The bellhousing pattern is the same as the 5 speed used in the 3.0 V6 version of the rear-drive Aerostar, so it can be converted to a rear drive configuration without TOO much effort, and bhp & torque numbers are at or above modified S-14 levels. There's a pretty decent aftermarket for SHO engines and components and complete performance engines are available "over the counter" for pretty reasonable $$.

I found an engine in a yard & took measurements - the only major point of interference was the front crossmember, but that looked to be fairly easily resolved with oil pan and oil pump pick up mods; probably would be easier to fit headers with a conversion to r&p steering as well.

[NoahTeates]

The Yamaha from the SHO was a great engine. The V8 from the later SHO tended to fail early, but the 6 was pretty solid.

I don't know if this counts as crazy, but I'm about to start an ambitious swap. I was a bit nervous til I found Jeremy's Project 2020 and he told me how it was going for him.

Long story short, local laws changed while I had my 240 apart and now I can't tag it without a working OBDII port. And since nobody is buying anything right now (see ad: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1154779 ), I decided to get a new home for my motor , where most of my money went.

Thanks to the Governator's hatred of cars 76+, the price was right on this one, so I'm having it shipped over to the right coast as we speak. I'm just outside of DC in Alexandria, but the work will be done in Baltimore at MA-Motorsports.com. They did wonders for my Nissan< and have a complete kit for swapping RB engines into early Datsun Z cars, and they really impressed me when I went to their shop.

I'll probably drop down to 550 cc injectors and a smaller turbine housing, but I want to see what kind of lag it has in the lighter car first. I may not bother me as much as I'm thinking it will. Wish me luck!

Take care,

Noah

[zac]

The big problem with bike engines in a "real" car (vs. a lotus, dune buggy, or other really lightweight cars) is the torque output. Even with the big 'busa-type engines. 70ft/lbs is NOT alot of torque to get an approx 2000 lb car moving. Even with a 1000-1300 lb car that is still not alot of torque, and even then the 70 ft/lbs is at roughly 8-9000rpm.

On paper is sounds like a killer idea-lightweight, revvy engine, compact packaging, etc, etc- but the reality is the torque is usually so lacking and so high in the rev range that it would most likely be alot of fab work for a pretty medicore result. Think about how everyone says not to run the 3.45 rear gear because of how much grunt the car will lose (for a mostly stock engine), now imagine what it would be like if a person swapped to 2.23 gears, if such a thing existed. Basically the same principle- torque production/multiplication is way too low to move the car with any amount of "gusto". Part of the reason our cars feel faster than, say, a 90's vintage Honda is the torque of the M10 is greater and lower in the rev range than a B16, even though the peak horsepower might be lower in our cars.

I don't mean to pee in your Wheatie's, and I love the bike engines, just not in cars. I ride a Kawi 636zxr and it's such an odd/great feeling to come into the powerband at 9000 rpms and shift at 14,000 or so. All of my previous bikes were done by 5000 rpms. HTH

[Pancake]

Nope, the engine itself isn't. Nor is the 13B turbo 5-speed that would bolt up. What gets expensive is all the custom fab work. Somehow I don't imagine an 02 and a 90s Cosmo have all that much in common.

[AndyS]

I have a supercharged 12a. It might wind up in my 02 pick up.

[Tommy]

I agree with zac. Bike engine is not smart for an 02. But for something like this weighing 700 kg it's another thing. Damn that's fast with Yamaha R1 engine! Still it's a racecar so torque might be low for driving in traffic.

Tommy

[reuben2002]

After reading the responses and talking with some guys at my car club meeting I think the motorcycle engine would be a cool swap. I'm not sure that the 2002 would do well with a big 6-cylinder, without a big overdo like in Paul Cain's car (although I think an S54 in an E9 would be a blast). I am aware of the difficulties of driving a motorcycle-engined car, but I've heard that after you get used to it, it can be a fun daily-driver. With the low torque, it requires easing into it from a stop, and downshifting a couple of gears to pass or climb hills, etc. With some bikes around 1000lbs, I think the 2000lbs of the 2002 would be manageable.

As a side note, it was suggested that I use a BMW motorcycle engine, the "flying brick" of the K-series, however the cost and availability of those engines ruled them out for me. Also they may have a similar hp rating (154 max I think) but they run out of revs at 9k. The one major advantage is the shaft drive, which would be easy to adapt.

Also, from my meeting, and driving my car around recently, I think I'll stick with an M10 for awhile still. They really are a great engine, and I can get plenty of horsepower for a driver and weekend warrior. It will be a few years until I can go crazy anyways.

Thanks for all your responses.

[BarryA]

directly related to low torque numbers for bike motors - bike motors have relatively tiny flywheels and clutches that are designed to get the weight of a bike and one or two riders moving (maybe 1000 lbs altogether if both rider and passenger are full size males).

Put that clutch up against even an early 1600 with one person aboard and it's got to get an additional 1200-1400 lbs moving - my guess is that the bike clutch would have a VERY short life-span (no matter how gently it was treated), and getting the car moving uphill from a dead stop on a fairly steep slope might be impossible. Imagine trying to negotiate traffic on the hills in downtown Seattle, or worse yet, San Francisco.

,

[KFunk]

You know whats even more fun than a motorcycle engine in a car?

A motorcycle engine in a...... motorcycle! it kicks ass!

[Guest]

directly related to low torque numbers for bike motors - bike motors have relatively tiny flywheels and clutches that are designed to get the weight of a bike and one or two riders moving (maybe 1000 lbs altogether if both rider and passenger are full size males).

Put that clutch up against even an early 1600 with one person aboard and it's got to get an additional 1200-1400 lbs moving - my guess is that the bike clutch would have a VERY short life-span (no matter how gently it was treated), and getting the car moving uphill from a dead stop on a fairly steep slope might be impossible. Imagine trying to negotiate traffic on the hills in downtown Seattle, or worse yet, San Francisco.

,

Interesting point raised. I'm considering putting a 'busa in the back of a datsun 510 I bought, sans engine, for 150$. Things to consider though. Z cars does this with classic mini's and other cars including one insane 2 500hp turbo hayabusa engines in an Ultima GTR. I have no idea what the life would be on those clutches, probably not a concern since the engines would have to be rebuilt every 10 hours or so. They also stuck one in a Lotus Elise. Now if you took a 2002 and completely stripped it to a rolling chassis with a bunch of weight reduction mods you're probably looking at a 1400 lb set up + 200-250 say for a hayabusa + custom diff. 1600-1650lbs + driver puts it not too far over the range of many bike powered race cars like the Radical SR3 ~1500lbs with two persons. Traction is also a factor, cars like the SR3 have greater traction which could make up the weight difference. Plus you can gear it down, the bikes are made to handle speeds way above what you could achieve with even a race 2002.

I'm glad people brought up this point, I'll do some more research on the subject. As for a daily driver, I would not put a motorcycle engine in it. Depending on your commute of course, you'd probably put way too much stress on it.

[canadamatt]

The S14 seems crazy expensive, and the M20 seems like a lot of work for little gain, plus the weight issue. .

On the contrary, drive a m20 powered car and see what you think first. When I first put in my (stock) m20, I nearly filled my pants. Having all that torque makes it a blast. My car is now way over the top (turbo m20 among other things), and its stupid fun and all, but part of me longs for the simple days of m20, bilsteins and h&r's, and thats it..

Matt

[NickVyse]

Here's a top idea for RHD cars - never mind the pricey s14 with it's exhaust/steering box issues, drop this in. I have a vague recollection that when this engine was stuck in a Jensen Healey they used a dog-leg getrag, so there might even be an off the shelf bellhousing that will fit up to a BMW driveline. Anyone shed some light on his? Later (Lotus) cars used a Toyota box, but I don't know what the early Lotus used.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOTUS-SE-2-2-LITRE-180-BHP-ENGINE-WITH-ALL-ANCILLARIES_W0QQitemZ300308360923QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item300308360923&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318