6cyl conversion big six not small six

[Guest Anonymous]

Nick V claims i would lose all aspects of the 2002 but I see paul cains conversion totally surpassing the weight category over what I want to do.

That is put a euro 635 csi motor with close ratio tranny into a 2002 and pull the motor back a few inches triple side draft 48mm webers a 300-310 duration cam and at least 10.0: 1 cr a nice header ported head.

Paul Cains conversion is getting all this praise. Is that because he is doing something that is simply just a little hard or because the damn car is gonna be a killer in terms of power, performance and handling.

Iam not gonna put a small six as that is not gonna be enough power for me.

Most of the cars I own new and old all push over 350 hp so a small six ain't gonna cut it and a small six is not gonna kill any street car out there. I haven't drove in a small six in a 2002 but I have drove pretty hot 3 series cars 85-89 3 series that were so called supped up with chips exhaust stroked 11.5:1 cr bigger manifold etc and it did not really make me want to go get one.You wanna know fast How about driving a 350 hp naturally aspirated vw bug old school with a close ratio tranny.I know for a fact a 2002 with a small six could not take it.Why well this 350 hp bug drops in the high 10 sec bracket with slicks and without loses about 1-1.5 secs in 1/4 mile times.what kinda times can a 2002 with the best small six out there do short of having a highly modified turboed small six in a quarter mile.

I even bet that paul cains latest conversion can't do 10 sec 1/4 mile times.

I would like to be clear that I want a super fast car not talk at functions about how this car can out handle anything on the track cause I got all this super stiff suspension under my car.

I drive the street not the track.

I want a 2002 that pulls so hard you black out.Cana small six do that.

Or is just putting in a small six just trivial stuff cause it is the next step up from a 4 cylinder.

It kinda sound like it to me bUt Iam very open minded to listen what people have to say.

Any aspect on the relation between how pauls car with all that heavy equipment is great but if I put a big six it is not.

Pauls car will not hoover the 2000 lb category anymore or around like a stock 2002.

The car is pretty much like an new 3 series in a 2002 body

[/i]

[robspeed]

Paul's motor weighs less than 400lbs, probably closer to 350 (just a guess, but stock tii motor is 330 or so, just for comparison). The IRON BLOCK M30 (big six) weighs a good 600lbs EASY. Thats more than a small block chevy (LT-1 is 550lbs, LS1 500). Good luck tho!

[MrNvgtr]

A 3.0 liter twin cam is not a small 6. A small 6 is the 2.5 liter M20 that is a much easier swap. The reason Paul is getting "all the praise" is because he did a very nice job with the conversion. We who frequent this board a lot have seen a lot of ok-to-nicely done M20 or S14 conversions. None of them look as good as Paul's and his had a ton more fabrication involved. In addition, if that is in fact an aluminum block, it is much lighter than people think.

One more thing. If you haven't been here long, this is the first real twin cam conversion done. The first of anything gets a lot of attention. You could also call Terry Sayther Auto's frankenbimmer car the first one, but they welded on an entire bottom of an e36.

[oz_tom]

No, hes done something that is VERY hard - hence the praise.

[andrewro]

Keep in mind that the people here, generally speaking, are not as concerned with toasting every other car in their town in a straight line, nor having blackout-level accelleration, as you put it. You seem really obsessed with elapsed times and that's not really what the '02 does. That said, there was a pic of a big 6 crammed inside a 2002 floating around here, and also a big block chevy conversion which was basically a drag car. There are threads in the archives that debate your objective of installing a big motor in these cars. In my opinion, stuffing the hugest engine possible under the hood will seriously compromise the car's driveability.

[Harv]

Wasn't there a 1600 built by Korman that had a M6 motor in it?

John

[ClayW]

http://www.terrysaytherauto.com/Frankenbimmer.htm

With the amount of fabrication that Terry is putting into that car, it's almost a shame that it's being built for the track and not the street. I really wish that I could have one of those built pro-touring style for the street. I suppose that when I win the lottery, I'll be calling either Terry Sayther or Paul Cain!

[Guest Anonymous]

Ok that sound good about people are not obssesed about their car going fast in a straight line.

personally that is a BS statement

Because if they were not concerned with speed and HP then why do a conversion for more power and speed if the 2002 loses it capabilities when switching motors.

Every single person I know to date regardless of make of vehicle is concerned about how fast their car goes they just do not know it directly.It is always indirect.

This pertains to people seeking more power as in I need a 38/38 carb now I need side drafts now I need a small six etc etc.

You can only go so fast around a corner but you can have eyeball flattening acceleration anywhere in the world

around corners you need a track unless life is not a concern to you.

You do not need a 200-250 hp motor to take a corner at 70 mph but you do need power as in HP to out accelerate a 911 turbo coming out of a corner if your neck and neck.

See that is if your racing around a track.

Most streets in california are crap pot hole dips etc and you can't take a corner when they are like that.

So, why all the metal to metal suspension urethane etc if they can't hit a corner. But they need to do an M20 conversion.

A car so destined to go fast around corners is even easier to make super fast in a straight line.

so why all the fuss.

Iam quite confused

a big six is super heavy and will so call handle for crap

2002's are not made to go fast in a straight line

most 2002 owners are not into speed just into handling

then why convert to a small six

everybody knows that it is all skill in the driver when you race on a track like itb gt1 etc not how much power your car has.

In fact I could already hear people talking about how their car is only 200 hp and it beats cars with as much as 500 hp cause they handle for beans.

Ok here is what I think would be cool maybe someone can suggest what to do.

I want triple side draft carbs

I want 300 hp

I want it on pump gas

It can be done but

Do not know which motor to go with

Who can make suggestion.

I do not want all the hi tech injection,computer ,brain, wires ,etc.

I want it simple like the 2002 is know for.

If I wanted hi tech why not just go buy a porsche turbo it is truly fast,can handle with the best of them and looks good

A 2002 looks good got that

handles good got that also

is not very fast do not know what to do

I want to install a six but am dead in the water now

I have access and still do for a euro 635 motor and cr trans for dirt cheap but from the few reviews.Iam now think otherwise.

Who has suggestion for my 2002

[ClayW]

....but Andrew's got a point. The beauty of a 2002, to me at least, is it's all-around balance. (http://www.terrysaytherauto.com/performanceUpgrades.htm)

It's possible to make almost any car perform well in a certain category of racing, given an unlimited supply of money and time. The cool part of owning old car's is finding what they're best suited for and expanding that. BMW 2002's are generally well balanced. The air-cooled VW's happen to be extremely light (I think I remember reading that those drag Beetles where less than 1500 lbs!). You can launch a Beetle through the 1/4 mile in 10 seconds, but you don't see many of them in SCCA races.

Either way, I'm all for unreasonable technological advances. If you want to stuff a big six into an `02, do it and post the pictures. Shoot for 350HP and figure a way to get it to the ground without ridiculously huge fender flares. In my opinion, the coolest way to build an older BMW is to add to EVERY aspect of the car equally, so, try to make it handle well, too.

That's what makes an "Ultimate Driving Machine" to me!

[monkeystripe]

it's obvious you are sold on stuffing as much power in to a 2002 as possible, and as you stated, going around corners is not a high priority for you. If you live in So. Cal. please take a run through Topanga Canyon before changing anything. I know for a lot of people on here, owning a 2002 is really about finding some deserted twisty road on a Sunday afternoon and wringing it out. 2002's arent made to handle massive power, so make sure you brace everything real well, and have some custom half shafts made. I have personally torqued all the bolts between the diff and the half-shaft in half, just getting on the gas real hard. Take a note from Colin Chapman and realize acceleration is not all about power, it's about power to weight. If it was me, I would get an aluminum Rover V8. you should be able to get some serious ponies out of that without much added weight.

[NickVyse]

Nick V claims i would lose all aspects of the 2002 but I see paul cains conversion totally surpassing the weight category over what I want to do.

[/i]

so tell me what all the relative weights are? You don't exactly come over too rich in facts - they're all out there on the interwebby thing.

If all you want to do to is go quick in a straight line stick an old big six under the hood - I think you'll find most 02 owners love the twisties and wouldn't want to compromise their handling with a massively heavy lump up front.

Paul has gone beyond most peoples imagination in trying to address these issues and has started with a much lighter engine to begin with. Deserves all the credit he gets.

[Mike Self]

make it the fastest or the best handling 2002 ever--he approached it as an engineering challenge--to modernize an '02 with the latest performance related technology and do it all with BMW parts. He was looking for elegant solutions, not brute force--otherwise he coulda stuffed a small block Chevy in the engine bay and be done with it. Paul was thinking outside the box to engineer what he wanted; I think he succeeded.

And BTW, the aluminum six he used (an M50 I think) is only the spiritual successor to the M30 (big six) engine from the 60s-80s. The M30 is essentially an M10 with two more cylinders...the pistons even interchange with an M10...while the M50 is a twin cam, four valve engine with a completely different block and internals.

cheers

mike

[MrNvgtr]

I can't stand these long drawn out posts, but I having nothing else to do right now, so I'll entertain you.

Ok that sound good about people are not obssesed about their car going fast in a straight line.

personally that is a BS statement

Because if they were not concerned with speed and HP then why do a conversion for more power and speed if the 2002 loses it capabilities when switching motors.

Because "they" are a minority and "they" aren't stuffing a giant heavy 635csi engine in a 2002. "They" typically use a slightly heavier M20 or go more purist with a nice M10 or S14. Except for an S38 from an e28 M5 shown on Coop's site, I have yet to see someone actually put a heavy enough engine in these cars to make it a dud in the corners

Every single person I know to date regardless of make of vehicle is concerned about how fast their car goes they just do not know it directly.It is always indirect.

Uhuh...

This pertains to people seeking more power as in I need a 38/38 carb now I need side drafts now I need a small six etc etc.

38/38 carbs are more power with little to no additional weight, so I don't think that is so straight-line centric like you hypothesize above. Yeah, the mechanic in all of us wants something more powerful. Do we follow through? No, because in some cases it doesn't make financial or practical sense.

You can only go so fast around a corner but you can have eyeball flattening acceleration anywhere in the world

Uhuh...

around corners you need a track unless life is not a concern to you.

Uhuh...

You do not need a 200-250 hp motor to take a corner at 70 mph but you do need power as in HP to out accelerate a 911 turbo coming out of a corner if your neck and neck.

Uhuh, who are you arguing with?

See that is if your racing around a track.

Most streets in california are crap pot hole dips etc and you can't take a corner when they are like that.

Exactly why there are laws against street racing.

So, why all the metal to metal suspension urethane etc if they can't hit a corner. But they need to do an M20 conversion.

Because we can; some of us have dual street/track cars.

A car so destined to go fast around corners is even easier to make super fast in a straight line.

Genius statement of the day!

so why all the fuss.

Nobody is making a huge fuss except for yourself.

Iam quite confused

I'm sorry if you don't understand. There's nothing we can do for that apparently.

a big six is super heavy and will so call handle for crap

2002's are not made to go fast in a straight line

most 2002 owners are not into speed just into handling

Stay off the drugs man. Alright that's all I can handle for now.

[andrewro]

For all your fuss about not wanting a track car, you sure seem obsessed with shaving tenths in the 1/4 mile. To me that sounds like just another kind of track car - a drag car. I'd recommend as a starting point that you do a search on this forum for posts by the user "M20Curtis" - he has a turbocharged small six and has talked at length about both how fast it is and how often he breaks stuff. Differentials, in particular, come to mind.

Good luck in your quest.

[NickVyse]

Except for an S38 from an e28 M5 shown on Coop's site, I have yet to see someone actually put a heavy enough engine in these cars to make it a dud in the corners

You speak the truth! Except that would be my web site - Coops just got a half decent car on my galllery page ;-)

02 + power + boat anchor like weight over front axle

coops mess of an engine bay (I mean, where the hell is the water bottle!)