Sep-Oct 67 1600-2s

[Conserv]

31 minutes ago, tjones02 said:

Gents, 1560847 still has its forward door mirror location, though it currently has a flag style mirror on it instead of a correct swan neck style one.

Thanks, Tom,

 

Here’s the list of twelve U.S. 1968 model 1600-2’s, all entered into the Registry, and all manufactured before November 30, 1967, that formed the basis of my extensive research ? into mirror placement (I also noted the current mirror):

 

Forward-Mounting Era

VIN 1560035, swan’s neck (Sept. 6, 1967)

VIN 1560270, swan’s neck 

VIN 1560364, swan’s neck

VIN 1560529, mirror hidden by A pillar

VIN 1560629, flag

VIN 1560816, flag

VIN 1560828, flag

VIN 1560847, flag

VIN 1560954, swan’s neck

VIN 1561224, swan’s neck (Nov. 3, 1967)

 

Aft-Mounting Era

VIN 1561262, flag (Nov. 7, 1967)

VIN 1561383, swan’s neck (Nov. 17, 1967)

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

[Mike Self]

5 hours ago, Conserv said:

I love questions like this, Slavs. I suspect we previously discussed it, but I cannot locate the discussion. Anyway, my best guess is that the mirror was moved aftward in the first half of November 1967, two months into the 1968 model year, a timeframe which also appears to coincide with the disappearance of many of the other “1967 model” features found on early 1968 models.

Me too--these little details have always fascinated me...Now here's an ananomoly for you:  My very early second series '69 2002 (4 Feb build date) has its swan neck mirror mounted in the further aft position--as it should.  However, the mirror fitted to it by the factory is the style that is meant for the far forward mount:  a stud for the front mount and a screw hole (for a machine screw and cage nut) for the rear mount.  I discovered this fairly early in the car's life (I bought it new) when I had to remove the mirror for some repair work on the door--it was delivered with a dented door, but after waiting 4 months for the car, I let Hoffman Motors pay for repairs at a local shop rather than wait for another sunroof, Nevada car.  To remove this mirror I had to take the upholstery panel off the door to unscrew the nut from that forward-mounted stud.  The silvering on the mirror was going bad almost from new, so I replaced that mirror some years later with one that mounted with two screws/cage nuts.

 

Now the question--how come that mirror ended up on my car, well over a year after the last 114 bodies were equipped with the forward mount location that mirror required.  Wonder if they ran out of '02 mirrors on Feb 4, and just grabbed some NK mirrors from the adjacent assembly line to keep it moving...yet another little '02 mystery.

 

mike

[tjones02]

@Mike SelfI suspect your car’s original mirror was broken in transit or otherwise before delivery and the dealer or Hoffman replaced it with whatever they had on hand.

[BritshIron]

I'll start by claiming to be "unencumbered by knowledge" on the mirror discussion, but it seems to me that the same Swan-Neck mirrors were used (in the forward mounted position) on all the four-door Neue Klasse cars leading up to 1968. It would make some sense that BMW simply continued to use these Swan-Neck mirrors on the early 1600-2 cars, and mount them in the same place on the driver's side--or in the aft position if they needed a mirror to get the cars off the assembly line. I'll bet it was not a 1600-2 design or style thing, but rather just using the mirror stock they had from the other Neue Klasse production lines.

 

I appreciate Steve's research, and would not argue that my car may have received flag-style mirrors post factory, either because the Swan-Neck mirrors became too pitted in another owner's hands, or for some other reason. But, that said, Steve's research shows quite a few flag-style mirrors on 1967 1600-2 cars. It seems like something was going on in late 1967 in terms of a transition from Swan-Neck to flag-style. Could this change have been part of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards Act mandates? And like so many other changes leading up to 1968 US Federalized cars, it seems some 1967 cars which were imported as US 1968 cars got the flag-mirrors, and some did not. Most likely the flag-style mirrors were on newer cars in 1967, but I'm betting there could have been earlier cars that got the new style mirrors.

 

I also agree with Mike and Tom. Something like an exterior mirror would not be an item that would stop the assembly line until the factory found the right one. During any minor brightwork transition like this, I'll bet the cars got the mirrors that were available at the time they were needed.

 

Fascinating topic! Better than my boring primer talk! Aloha, Robert

 

 

 

 

[Conserv]

1 hour ago, BritshIron said:

But, that said, Steve's research shows quite a few flag-style mirrors on 1967 1600-2 cars. It seems like something was going on in late 1967 in terms of a transition from Swan-Neck to flag-style.

Just to be clear, Robert, the flag-style mirror was introduced late in the 1974 calendar year. It did not exist before late 1974. 1974 models (produced September 1973 through August 1974, except for the late “1974 tii’s”), for instance, received trap(ezoid) mirrors, the style between the swan’s neck mirror and the flag mirror. So the general progression of mirrors on ‘02’s was:

 

1. Swan’s neck: March 1966 to April 1971

2. Trap mirror, April 1971 to November-ish 1974

3. Flag mirror, November-ish 1974 through the end of ‘02 production

I’m happy to hear other views on these changeover dates.

 

Replacement swan’s neck mirrors were discontinued while the ‘02 was still in production. I don’t know when replacement trap mirrors were discontinued. Just as important as availability, however, each style of mirror was a substantial improvement over its predecessor in terms of function: bigger is just better when it comes to rearview mirrors. Thus, back in the day, as mirrors broke, owners upgraded their mirrors to the newer styles. Many didn’t even wait for their mirrors to break. By the late 1970’s, owners were installing pairs of flag mirrors both for the function and to modernize their cars.

 

Thus, lots and lots of ‘02’s eventually got flag mirrors, regardless of their model year.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

[BritshIron]

Steve, The thing I like most about BMW 2002 FAQ is you can say something without fear of being embarrassed. I had no idea about the history of the mirrors on my car. I'm now smarter about this matter, and just as enthusiastic!

 

Thank you, this is a great venue. I appreciate your guidance. I've been a sports car hobbyist for may years, and this venue is absolutely the best I've experienced for honest discussion and kind feedback for any marque. Aloha, Robert

 

PS. When the Swan-Neck mirrors disappeared from 02 production, was it abrupt, or phased? RPS

[Conserv]

11 minutes ago, BritshIron said:

 

... PS. When the Swan-Neck mirrors disappeared from 02 production, was it abrupt, or phased? RPS

OMG, Robert! Someone needs to stop you before you... utterly fill your garage! ???

Thanks, Robert, for always being a gentleman, and never a twit!

 

As with many of the changes and “upgrades” the ‘02 witnessed over its decade of production — recognizing also that many of these changes were largely intended to improve BMW AG’s bottom line — I’d bet that the mirror changeovers, swan’s neck-to-trap and trap-to-flag, were not perfectly executed at specific VIN’s. Parts books might record changeovers as VIN-specific. But BMW — a relatively small and weak automaker during the ‘02 era — appears to have had a history of finding a couple more boxes of chromed recliners, another few gallons of a discontinued paint color, and easing them into the assembly line... Waste nothing! ?

Abrupt? Sort of, in a loose fashion, given the desire to use up inventories. Phased? Perhaps not.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

[BritshIron]

Here are some photos of the flag-style exterior mirrors that were on 1560679 when I bought the car. Can anyone tell me about what year these mirrors are from, or whether they are BMW OEM or aftermarket? Note the two side mirrors bear the stamp "III e1 17043" My driver's side mirror is mounted in the aft position, and the passenger door mirror is mounted in the forward position. They both have a blue tint on the mirrored surface.

 

Also, does anyone recognize what year and/or model the inside rearview mirror may have come from?

 

Thanks so much. Robert

[Slavs]

On 1/16/2021 at 8:40 AM, Conserv said:

People don’t choose the forward mounting position unless there is a history of it!

Steve, I'm one of the few people who prefers the forward mounting location for the mirror. When I was repairing my 69 1600 I chose to move the mirror forward. I also opted to use the swan neck mirror. I find that I don't have to twist my neck as much to view the mirror mounted in the forward position. The interference from the window frame is minimum, if any.  I don't find this to be a problem at all. The only problem is when you open the small butterfly window. It obstructs the view in the open position. But, I hardly ever open it.

 

I also prefer the aesthetics of the swan neck mirror which better compliments the clean lines of the car. The later square and larger mirrors offer a better view and are safer.  Some of the tuners for Japanese cars use these later BMW mirrors on their Datrsun 510s. They are a huge improvement in aesthetics compared to the original mirrors on their cars.

[Flamingo 5]

16 minutes ago, Slavs said:

Steve, I'm one of the few people who prefers the forward mounting location for the mirror. When I was repairing my 69 1600 I chose to move the mirror forward. I also opted to use the swan neck mirror. I find that I don't have to twist my neck as much to view the mirror mounted in the forward position. The interference from the window frame is minimum, if any.  I don't find this to be a problem at all. The only problem is when you open the small butterfly window. It obstructs the view in the open position. But, I hardly ever open it.

 

I also prefer the aesthetics of the swan neck mirror which better compliments the clean lines of the car. The later square and larger mirrors offer a better view and are safer.  Some of the tuners for Japanese cars use these later BMW mirrors on their Datrsun 510s. They are a huge improvement in aesthetics compared to the original mirrors on their cars.

I believe your thinking is upside down 

[Slavs]

As far as the early three  spoke steering wheel as fitted to the 68 model year 1600-2 and 2002, it is easily identifiable when compared to the earlier single poke and later three spoke wheels. The horn actuation paddles on the early three spoke are metal vs. plastic used on later three spoke wheels. On the early three spoke the center hub pad is fitted into a polished aluminum piece which also makes up the ring. This is not the case with later 3 spoke wheels where the trim around the central hub pad is plastic and a part of the pad itself. And, as someone has already pointed out, I believe the 1968 three spoke wheel is larger than the later 3 spoke wheels. The early three spoke wheel was obviously more costly to produce. So, BMW did away with it. There is a thread somewhere here relating to the steering wheels in question.

 

I've included a pic of my spare early single spoke wheel (minus the center plastic cover) next to my early 1968 three spoke wheel. I grabbed these wheels from the U-Pick Part wrecking yards 25 years ago. They cost next to nothing back then, the price of a meal at Mc Donalds (somewhere between $5 - $10 each). So many of these cars and related parts were all crushed and destroyed during the 90s. They were considered as throw away cars even by many of the car enthusiasts who were more fixated on the Porsche 911s,  BMWs six cylinder coupes and the British Healeys. My pic is upside down again.  

Edited January 18, 2021 by Slavs

[Conserv]

5 hours ago, Slavs said:

 

... I'm one of the few people who prefers the forward mounting location for the mirror. When I was repairing my 69 1600 I chose to move the mirror forward. I also opted to use the swan neck mirror. I find that I don't have to twist my neck as much to view the mirror mounted in the forward position. The interference from the window frame is minimum, if any.  I don't find this to be a problem at all. The only problem is when you open the small butterfly window. It obstructs the view in the open position. But, I hardly ever open it...

 

 

Thanks, Slavs,

 

I suspect the seating position and the height of the driver also determine whether or not the forward-mounting position works. My ‘67 — this was 46 years ago when I was 6’3” and had big ‘70’s-style hair — had the forward-mounted mirror and it drove me crazy.

 

Nonetheless, your point is well taken: a few owners moved aft-mounted mirrors forward!

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

[BritshIron]

I found the answer to my mirror question above in a 2013 FAQ thread. Thanks to all for the education! Robert

 

 

 

[Conserv]

Robert,

 

I’ve never thought about flag mirrors from a perspective of OEM or aftermarket. But, of course, you’re right. And someday — well, perhaps — sharp-eyed critics will immediately recognize the differences. 
 

Here’s what I know — all of it — and it’s based solely on looking at my photos. I’m in New York, the ‘76 is in New Jersey. But I’ve got a photo (below)!

 

In 1983, as I was putting the ‘76 away for its long, 27-year, winter’s rest, I bought lots of parts, from the local BMW dealer. Why? The model was 7 years out of production and there was/is an urban myth, I suppose it’s a myth, that car manufactures were/are required to provide replacement parts for 7 years, but no more.

 

Among the parts I bought were a pair of flag mirrors. And, lo and behold, the left flag mirror — I only have a photo of the left mirror — is marked “III  e1  1704...”, much like yours. So yours is OEM. But I can’t reasonably date it. Your stamped identification is crisper than mine. Is that reflective of a younger, crisper stamp? Or does it simply vary from mirror to mirror, from stamper to stamper? I haven’t a clue!

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

[Fred Asmus]

maybe better late than never but time to try my poor computer skills and join the registry with my 68 built 69 registered vin 1563411 bristol 1600 first sold at BMW Honolulu where the car continues here on Oahu, Hi