Future Proof Upgrades

[Seth Horwitz]

My car has been living at my mechanic for several months, and he claims there’s a brake fluid leak. (I haven’t pushed him because I don’t have room for another car, right now.) Anyway, if I give him a real work order he’ll probably get working, (or I’ll make room and do it myself) and I’ll have the car for the summer. Anyway, I’m planning on driving the car as-is until fall, and then MAYBE doing an M20 and Tranny swap. That said:

 

Brakes: New stainless and rubber brake lines. Would an M20 install prevent reusing any of these? Will I move anything under the hood which changes brake line measurements? What about a typical E21 or Ireland type brake upgrade?

 

Sway Bars: Ireland, and others, make a front sway specifically for swapped cars. Would putting one of these on a regular M10 car be any worse than using the non-swap bars?

 

Carpet: If I have to bang on the center tunnel, will new carpet move with the metal, or will that need to be redone?

 

Springs and Shocks seem to have similar recommendations for both the M10 and M20, being H&R, ST, or Ireland springs, and Bilstein HDs. I’m assuming that it’s fine to do that, now, as opposed to waiting. Correct me if I’m wrong. 

 

Well, am I missing anything? Thanks for any help. 

 

     Seth

[Mike G]

The drop sway bar is fine. What transmission are you planning to use with the m20? That’ll determine how much you have to massage the transmission tunnel and if carpet will fit.

 

['76mintgrün'02]

9 hours ago, Seth Horwitz said:

Bilstein HDs. I’m assuming that it’s fine to do that, now, as opposed to waiting.

They are currently unavailable, so you'l have to wait on those.   

[TobyB]

I'm going to misconstrue your question and poke the bear, here.

 

I think an M20 engine is a problem for future- proofing.  It's almost 30

years old, now, and parts are getting as hard- and as expensive- to find as M10

parts, as they've fallen out of the aftermarket.

Honestly, the M20 was a short- term 

interim energy- crisis stopgap in the first place!

  Plus, timing belt.

 

Yes, the E30 goatee- tugging droopy pants crowd is claiming senior 'respect' status,

so overpriced, poor- quality M20 stuff will be around for a while,

but BMW made far far more M10 variants than specifically M20B25 

engines, and up until the overhead cams came out, just like the M20.

G265 transmissions are starting to go the way of the 245, and the oddball

4- speed that actually fit was almost unobtanium from the get- go.

 

So if you really want some form of future resistance, I'd suggest

a more recent 24 valve engine.  The N52 is now hacked to stand

alone... as are several other aluminum block engines that aren't

even 10 years out of production.

 

Or turbo an M10.  More power AND the engine the car was designed around.

 

t

blithely ignoring the 'it's not gonna fit' problem.

Edited June 22, 2019 by TobyB

[Schnellvintage]

+1 Toby...well put.

[Seth Horwitz]

I’ll try to get everything in one reply. (And I don’t know how to multiquote on my iPad.)

 

Transmission: This needs to be an Automatic, unfortunately. A surgery screwed up my ankle, and I just can’t work three pedals unless I grow a third leg. I’ve actually had another surgery to try and make this possible, because I miss stick that much, with the surgeon asking me if I was serious as to my reason for wanting it because a success would do little else. I was serious, did get the surgery, but no luck. So be it. Therefore, I need to left foot the brake, like an F1 driver. Given all that. The original plan was the 4-speed ZF from an E30. It’s a pretty simple tranny that is sized SOMEWHERE near the 5-speed manuals that everyone is putting in. 

 

Bilstens: I know that they aren’t available, but didn’t someone come up with a chart showing a different SKU that was equivalent to the HD? Maybe I’m wrong. I’d need to check my notes. 

 

Engine: I hear what you’re saying, Toby, but I think the tranny makes my situation a lot more complicated. While other engines have been made to run individually, what about an auto tranny to pair up to it? (Serious question.) Tuners aren’t spending a ton of time working with Autos, as there’s no market reason to do so. That leaves me with older engines that can easily attach to a necessarily older and simpler transmission, unless someone knows better. (Again, I’m wide open to suggestions if I’m missing something.) I want more low end power, and don’t need a high strung track screamer where I need to wind it out before the turbo spools up (I have a different car that does that), so it seems like a stroked M20 with a 4 Speed Auto is about as good as I’m going to get. If someone can point me to a new 4-banger kicking out 250hp with straightforward plumbing, with a six speed auto, that I can get in the car for less than something like $10K+/-, I’m all ears. One other problem, there don’t seem to be any tuners in New York, and I’d like something somewhat local, so I can drop in more than once. That also necessitates a lower level of skill. 

 

To sum up, I think there are guys around here who could drop an M20 and ZFHP44 into a 2002. (That seems like some work with a hammer, and basic mechanic skills, if I can buy a prefabbed mounting bracket.) I can get a good engine builder to set the M20 up to do what I need, leaving the “outside” of the engine looking stock. Is this the best answer? I don’t know, but I also don’t think this question has been asked. What’s the best you can do for a street car with an automatic transmission? After a lot of time searching these boards, it seems like I’ve found it, but I’m happy to be wrong. 

 

Thanks for any info. 

 

      Seth

 

 

[TobyB]

Ah, yeah, if you need the auto, that's a different can o' worms, as the later transmissions

are bigger and need the electronics as well.  The m5x will bolt up to an e30 trans,

but fitment is going to be even harder.

 

And it sounds like you've given this some real thought, and know what you want- go for it!

 

t

[Seth Horwitz]

Thanks, Toby. I can never make it easy. I was hoping that there was a better option but, if you’re the one telling me that there probably isn’t, I’m pretty sure there isn’t. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Seth Horwitz

[Dudeland]

Wasn’t someone looking to put a sequential shift tranny in their car. It was out of a ford or something. I don’t know if it will be in budget.

For 6-7 k you can have a Honda S2000 motor and tranny. Not sure if the auto though.

Knowing that arthritis is a reality for me in life. A sequential is my go to for when I can’t take the stick shift any more. Plus it is just badass in my books ala group b.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AceAndrew]

I feel obligated to provide counter-points to Toby's arguments.... although at this point the reply is a little late.

 

The M20 remains a great choice BECAUSE of it's age.  It retains much of the M10's charm (single-cam, period-appearance).  It still has a lot of quality aftermarket support (much more so than the anemic little M42 or Turbo M10 options).  You won't be chopping up the car any more than someone running a Turbo setup would.  It fits much better than a later engine (and no late-motor engine management headaches), and has been documented to a much greater degree.  Sure a late aluminum-block motor could fit with more hacking, more electrical finagling, more general complexity, all for a funky black plastic valve cover and a driving character far removed from BMW's M10, M20, M30 engine family tree.  In short, it's the perfect choice for a period-feeling hotrod '02.

----------------

 

Now to hopefully directly answer your questions Seth...

 

Brakes: New stainless and rubber brake lines. Would an M20 install prevent reusing any of these? No Will I move anything under the hood which changes brake line measurements? No What about a typical E21 or Ireland type brake upgrade? Possibly, with wilwoods you will be converting the fronts to a single-line setup.

    

 

Sway Bars: Ireland, and others, make a front sway specifically for swapped cars. Would putting one of these on a regular M10 car be any worse than using the non-swap bars? No, in fact I drove around with a drop-center IE bar with the M10 for a few years prior to pulling the car off the road.

 

Carpet: If I have to bang on the center tunnel, will new carpet move with the metal, or will that need to be redone? Possibly, depends on how much banging.  However, given the wider fit of the automatic tunnel already, I'd bet that you could get away with reusing it (this is just a guess though).

 

Springs and Shocks seem to have similar recommendations for both the M10 and M20, being H&R, ST, or Ireland springs, and Bilstein HDs. I’m assuming that it’s fine to do that, now, as opposed to waiting. Correct me if I’m wrong.  This part is pretty dependent on the driver.

 

Well, am I missing anything? Thanks for any help. 

[Seth Horwitz]

Thanks, Andrew. 

[TobyB]

Quote

 funky black plastic valve cover 

 

Andrew, I don't disagree with any of your points except this one,

(Mr Californian,) and thank you and your 'progressive' state

for providing us with the M56 which has

 

(wait for it)

 

a sealed stainless steel fuel tank with integral (disposable) fuel pump as  a non- replacable part

 

and

 

 

*(wait for it)*

 

 

 

 

an aluminum valve cover.

 

 

 

The intake's still plastic tho.

 

 

If anyone is ever offered a 'SULEV' for any dollar value over 'I'll give you $400 to drag it off'

I'd suggest declining.

 

 

 

some things are more nonsensical than others.  California likes to be cutting edge

 

t

(would also not put a DOHC engine in a 2002, and yeah, mostly for aesthetic reasons)

[Schnellvintage]

27 minutes ago, TobyB said:

a sealed stainless steel fuel tank with integral (disposable) fuel pump as  a non- replacable part

Most likely Elon Musk, paid big money for this engineering obsolescence, for the electric "George Jetson" vehicle movement and control your travels...LOL

 

Cheers,

Matt