Bilstein VW Rabbit Strut Insert Alternatives?

[POKTROKT]

Anyone know if there are any alternatives to using the bilstein VW rabbit strut inserts? 

 

I'll keep looking but seems like the 34-184530 sports seem to be back ordered .

 

[pierre²]

Toby find an alternative but may need some work,, you better ask the Man .

I presume it,s for a shortened coils-over project.

[TobyB]

Very early (pre 6- 86?) first generation MR2 rears.  They are quite short, small, and quite stiff.

 

They may also be NLA- I haven't ordered them in a long time...

 

t

 

[manimal]

45 minutes ago, TobyB said:

Very early (pre 6- 86?) first generation MR2 rears.  They are quite short, small, and quite stiff.

 

They may also be NLA- I haven't ordered them in a long time...

 

t

They're NLA, I bought the wrong ones for my Z and ended up going with the Rabbit Bilstein inserts back in Oct. They were back ordered then as well, but I was able to get a set of four from two distributors.

Edited March 27, 2019 by manimal

[irdave]

How nice of suspension do you want?  I've got some MCS 2 way non-remote dampers built on tii spindles I need to list in the for sale section...  They make my new rebound adjustable Konis feel very... basic.

 

http://motioncontrolsuspension.com/buyers-guide/2-way-non-remote/

 

[POKTROKT]

Thanks for the responses.

Yes this is for a coilover setup up, with bilstein sports front and rear. 

 

Springs rates will be for a streetable setup, 300 fronts and 275 rears. 

2 hours ago, irdave said:

How nice of suspension do you want?  I've got some MCS 2 way non-remote dampers built on tii spindles I need to list in the for sale section...  They make my new rebound adjustable Konis feel very... basic.

 

http://motioncontrolsuspension.com/buyers-guide/2-way-non-remote/

 

 Let me look these up, are they shorter? if they are adjustable they may work oka with the bilstein sport rears which I already have.

 

 

[Jimmy]

Just curious, how did you choose your spring rates? Stock 02s have a stiffer rear spring due to the leverage of the rear suspension design. 

[Einspritz]

WoW; MCS actually provides a graph of the different settings so you can calculate and adjust to your particular spring rates and situation.

 

What a concept.

 

Try getting THAT from Bilstein or another supplier, rather than "stiffer" and softer", and a general initial rate.

[POKTROKT]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

Just curious, how did you choose your spring rates? Stock 02s have a stiffer rear spring due to the leverage of the rear suspension design. 

 

Interesting, I hadn't considered leverage, just learned something new.  May have to measure the geometry to calculate the effective rate of the spring for a true front to rear rate ratio.   

 

The rates were as suggested by Jeff at Ireland Engineering based on what I want the car to do.  

 

[Einspritz]

43 minutes ago, POKTROKT said:

I hadn't considered leverage

 

That's called the Motion Ratio

 

Front: ~0.967

Rear: ~0.593

 

In simple terms, you multiply that ratio by your respective spring rate to get the effective rate; but an analysis is more detailed than that for weight transfer, braking, cornering, etc.

 

49 minutes ago, POKTROKT said:

The rates were as suggested by Jeff at Ireland Engineering based on what I want the car to do. 

 

Yes. What do you want the car to do?

 

2 hours ago, POKTROKT said:

 

Springs rates will be for a streetable setup, 300 fronts and 275 rears

 

Back of the envelope observations say the car will understeer near the limits of adhesion.

[POKTROKT]

39 minutes ago, Einspritz said:

 

That's called the Motion Ratio

 

Front: ~0.967

Rear: ~0.593

 

In simple terms, you multiply that ratio by your respective spring rate to get the effective rate; but an analysis is more detailed than that for weight transfer, braking, cornering, etc.

 

 

Yes. What do you want the car to do?

 

 

Back of the envelope observations say the car will understeer near the limits of adhesion.

 

Thanks for sharing this info!  got it, STATIC STATE multiply by these FR and RR ratios, DYNAMIC not so easy to define.

The car will be used mostly cruising, the odd spirited driving (not too many twisty roads around here) and eventually a track day here and there.

I don't know the exact weight distribution of a 2002 (googleing it) but I agree, sounds like I should have gone with stiffer rears. 

Once i get a set of sway bars and a track day or two under my belt I will grab some stiffer rears.  

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by POKTROKT

[Einspritz]

Here is one analysis, but it is independent of the spring rates.

 

BUT this will change if you have other people in the car, a full tank of gas, and/or "junk in the trunk".

 

Note too that the OE front spring rates are 30%-50% of what you are proposing.

2002 Turbo WeightTransfer (version 1).pdf

[Einspritz]

I might add the most cost effective suspension upgrade is better tires.

[TobyB]

...and the second most is front coilovers.

 

I once out- lapped a doctor in an M2 who couldn't figure out why his car wasn't 'faster'

than my stock- engined 2002.  Being focused on engines, he didn't want to believe

that the extra 3 degrees of front camber could make up more than his front- straight- engine advantage.

But it did.  I could pass him exiting onto any straight I chose....

 

The 2002 is crippled for front camber on modern radials, and that, more than anything,

will drive it to understeer like a Ford LTD as you increase lateral loading.

Lowering can perversely worsen things, as the roll center in front will diverge

from that in the rear.

 

From my observations, spring rates roughly equal front- to- rear is a pretty good place to start,

and damping significantly softer in back, as the DAMPER ratio in back is more than 1:1-

look how the rear shocks mount to the trailing arm.  You will end up a bit softer in back on rough

pavement- in fact, the rear of a 2002 really benefits from being damped only as much as it

takes to keep the contact patch on the ground.  No BillStones back there, seriously!

 

With #300 front, #275 rear, you can play with bars- leave the front rather soft,

and then add rear until it's as lively as you'd like.

 

t

[irdave]

Yay! Suspension conversation!

 

Don't forget wheel frequencies!  And then the real kicker is trial and error- theory is great to get you close, but then you just have to try it...

 

The MCS dampers are really nice- and more than most any of us need.   I was just conversing with another FAQer about them.  They are a national championship level damper, and cost as such.  You can get them valved for any spring rate and most any application.  They're made here in the US in Georgia by the guy that started Moton.  Question was asked why I'm selling them- simply because they don't fit the new car.  I had them built on some tii spindles and the new car uses e30m3 suspension.  They are sold in sets of fronts and rear together.  Yes, they're shorter than stock.  And that's choose-able when you order them.  I got them in a shorter length- it's really easy to get them a cm or 2 longer, or any length, really- because they are all built to order.  My set was the first of 2002 2 way non-remotes so we went back and forth a bit with drawings to get the dimensions right.  And we can get them with added camber- without bending anything.

 

They have a level of sophistication that makes my mouth water.  It's like proper hi-fi or good wine- they regular stuff is ok, but the really good stuff is just so much better that sometimes, for some of us, it's worth the cost.  For me, the ride quality and control combined with real service-ability and proper tune-ability makes the price of admission bearable (and suspension is what I do for a living- having adjustable compression and rebound is a big deal for me.) 

 

I've got the Ohlins DFVs on my e46m3 wagon and they're really nice, too, but just not quite the same level of control or adjust-ability.  There currently isn't an Ohlins 2002 option, nor for an e30, and just kind of for an e36. 

 

13 hours ago, Einspritz said:

WoW; MCS actually provides a graph of the different settings so you can calculate and adjust to your particular spring rates and situation.

 

Yeah, I've got the dyno chart for mine, along with graphs of other typical possibilities.  Jay at GC shared with me his Koni dyno charts for 2 of the options he sells so I could pick the ones I wanted.  I like those guys, too.

 

If anybody has specific questions about the MCSs, Ohlins, or any of this stuff, please let me know.  I love getting good information out into the world.  And if I don't know the answer I can get it.  I'm a dealer or service center for several suspension companies- Ohlins, ANZE, MCS, Eibach, GC (car stuff) officially, and unofficially I service a lot of other dampers- AST, Moton- and have a set of Proflex rally car dampers here right now- along with my main deal which is motorcycle suspension...